twocicle

The 18-24 spoke HED Ardennes prebuilt wheels (using the C2 rim) max out at 225lb rider weight limit.

How do you extrapolate that limit to know what limits a 32h C2 rim can safely handle (or are other specs available somewhere)?

uspspro

I'm not sure that it's worth trying to extrapolate anything.

A little bit over over-engineering margin is fine with me. In other words, I am willing to keep those extra grams.

I'm willing to bet many teams could have success with a 32/32 setup.

twocicle

Ok. I'm just curious because I've been thinking of adding a set of fairly light weight * higher profile ("more aero") wheels to our collection and mulling over the idea of carbon/AL rim choices and what would work with a 145mm rear disc ready hub.

I've seen teams use Ksyrium SSL rims which I have on my single, but with all the problems I've had with those I'd never use them on a tandem. Then there is a photo of a tandem I stare at that has Zipp 404s... pretty sharp looking, but a little out of the range I was considering.

twocicle

FWIW,

While sleuthing on the net about Soul S4.0 wheels, found this info but it's not 100% verified yet...
https://forums.roadbikereview.com/whe...-a-195409.html

In the above discusssion, note comments of preference for Kinlin 30mm rims.

Then in this thread (https://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/...i?post=3095091), "davidalone" from Singapore says he thinks the Soul rims are actually Kinlins.

Can continue this Kinlin discussion elsewhere, but here is just one hit for sourcing... https://www.wheelbuilder.com/kinlin-xr-300-rim.html, and these seem to be 19mm wide.

No verification of aero advantage. Could be just another higher profile rim without any real tech basis?

fietsbob

Recall seeing Taiwan's GDP is actually about like the state of Michigan, as a whole..

ksisler

So reading all this, if one builds well executed wheels for a tandem using tandem specific parts in a reasonable configuration, then the wheel will very likely last a long time assuming they are maintained probably and not crashed.

Phil Wood, CK, Shimano HFx series, MaxiCar, Hayden, Sanshin, etc.; yep! Shimano 600's (not intended for tandem use), well not really much chance on a tandem with those, as others have pointed out. /K

Ritterview

Taiwan's GDP of 466 billion (#27 in the world) ($ 20,083 per capita) is closer to #8 Ohio's 483,400 billion ($42,035 per capita), than Michigan ($372.4 billion, $37,616 per capita).

If you take a Google street view at random from Taiwan's and Michigan's largest cities, respectively, it isn't the latter that you'd think was the more prosperous.

uspspro

C'mon... don't tell me you chose those points at random....

twocicle

Maybe the following doesn't belong in this thread, but since we're taking a dip in the wheel building pool...

Do you drool or vomit in your mouth when you see these 24/28 808s?

From the Calfee gallery at precisiontandems.com:


Being on the more conservative side, I'd probably go with the 202s for all-round riding and road racing. The 808s seem a wee bit intimidating.

Ritterview

I think that this is just a rather unfortunate photograph, what with the too bright sunshine, the dark shadows, the Zipp overdone labeling and aluminum braking track is all too busy.

This composition is much cleaner, coherent and more purposeful, though the rims be nearly as deep.



Speaking of intimidating, our deep carbon rims at speed, especially on a more granular road surface, make a distinct noise that riders we overtake think is a car. When they finally see us, they are more surprised and relieved than intimidated.

Edit:

There is one thing that does provide some esophageal regurgitation. And that is the Precision Tandems web site. That is what web sites looked like in 1996!

twocicle

Except for the monster labels, I don't mind the deep section rims on tandems. They almost make me want to start shaving my legs again and wearing the newer style TT helmet...

Ritterview

Ah, 2cicle, I see you are tempted by carbon rims. An aero helmet is not needed, as the tandem-specific reason to get deep rims is that it makes the wheel stronger. Tandem wheels need to be strong, like bull. Carbon rims are both lighter and stiffer than aluminum, so that a carbon deep rim is more effective at providing stiffness without weight penalty. This allows a strong and still relatively light wheel.

When I was discussing my wheels with Jason at Fairwheel, I had thought I would make the wheels in 45 mm to make them as light as possible. As the ENVE wheels are limited to 28 molded spoke holes, he recommended 65's to make the wheel stronger. I also used more robust DT Comp spokes, rather than the usual DT aerolite.

So, on a tandem, deep rims are neither about looks (though they do grab attention), nor aero (though aero they are), but about wheel strength. So that when you are bombing a descent and the sign for a switchback comes into view, you will have confidence that your rims are not going to be rubbing the brake pads. Likewise, you won't be carrying extra spokes, or have a spare set of heavy wheels, because you won't even know what a breaking spoke sounds like.

twocicle

Naw, just for Zoot appeal. I use my Garmin to let me know about the road ahead

https://www.enve.com/wheels/road/65.aspx

Can't see which hubs you have...



Would you build these again and if yes, any differently?
... and how are they in crosswind?

Carbonfiberboy 

I'm stuck with rim brakes and have a nice set of 36H CK hubs, so I'm just looking for 36H aluminum rims, which I go through at a pretty good rate because of riding year-round in the PNW. There was some discussion of Soul rims/wheels up the thread. Here is their page about their new rim technology:
https://2013.bikesoul.com/new-wheelsets/

This info is not reflected throughout their website, which is a little weird. I had a brief discussion with Sean Wai, the proprietor, about providing 36H S4.0 rims. He was disinclined to mess with tandems, saying that he didn't want to build something he hadn't tested, and not having any tandems in Singapore . . .

A little groundswell of enthusiasm for inexpensive alu aero rims would be nice, if anyone else felt like talking to Sean about it. There are so many rim braked tandems like mine out there who could all use a stronger, wider, more aero rim. IMO carbon tandem rims aren't for rim braked daily use tandems, or perhaps any daily use sport tandem.

TandemGeek

Although not wanting to hi-jack a thread that's already ventured off the reservation a bit, I feel compelled to offer a somewhat different perspective.

While Precision Tandem's website lacks newer, gee whiz graphics and eye candy, it more than makes up for it in content for it's target market. You know, that .02% of the overall bicycle market (based on revenue) occupied by tandem cyclists. For example, how many other sites provide this much information in one easy to read section on Gates carbondrive belts?



Frankly, having visited more than my fair share of sites... once you understand how Precision's Website is organized it becomes quite easy to navigate. Moreover, given it really hasn't changed all that much over the past 12-years there's no need to relearn how to navigate. By the way, since all of their parts are on the same massively long page you can easily search that massive page by following the instructions at the top of the page:


But yes.. if you're looking for photo galleries for each part, pan-tilt-zoom images, how-to movies and all of the other stuff that the mainstream Etailers have been able to host at significant expense along with automated shopping carts you're not going to find it on a tandem speciality dealer's website. Again, we're talking about a market where all of the premium-brand US tandem makers combined have an annual tandem output that's most likely less than 2,500 units a year and the best way to find out what will work on your tandem is to call one of the tandem speciality dealers, not surf their sites. I shudder to think how many returns a tandem dealer would have to process if folks were able to simply click and buy stuff from their Web sites.

-----------------------------------

P.S. Back on topic, I've used Chris King headsets almost exclusively since the original DiaComp Aheadset on our '95/96 Santana Arriva indexed after about 3,000 miles of use and was replaced by the venerable CK headset. Our Cannondale had an FSA, but that was the only exception: CKs on our '98 Erickson, '00 Ventana, '02 Ventana, '02 Erickson, '08 Precision triplet and '08 Calfee. Single bikes are the same: CK all around with one exception: my '05 Bianchi Pista. We've also been using the CK hubs on our off-road Ventana since 2002: they're a beautiful thing. I'd use them on our road tandem wheels if we were a high-demand team putting out big watts, but we're not. So the less expensive and somewhat lighter White Industries hubs meet our needs quite nicely. Again, Chris King components: they're amazing and worth every penny!

Ritterview

Glad to answer these questions, 2cic. I addressed some of the wheel in a post a while back. I am going to repost that info below.

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The weight on the scale is very close to that calculated by the Wheelbuilder.com Wheel Weight Calculator. The 65 rim is of course heavier than the 45, and I used the heavier DT Comp spokes....



Both: 1718 grams, Rear: 929 grams, Front: 789 grams.



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The hubs are DT Swiss. These come out okay in the Fairwheel hub review. The main reason DT Swiss was chosen that it had the availability of a Campagnolo freehub in 135 mm disc. If I were to do this again, I'd probably go with the Chris King's per Jason's recommendation in my post upthread, provided that I could get a Campy freehub. Campy freehubs should be easier to obtain in the future with the advent of the very similar Shimano 11-speed.

I don't know if I would go with the lighter spokes such as DT aerolites. The 28 DT Comps with the 65 mm rim on the DT Swiss hub appears to make the wheel quite robust. I might have been able to get away with DT aerolites, and thus get the wheelset weight in the 1600's!

You'd think that crosswinds would be a problem. On our very first ride, Solvang, I recall it being sketchy in a crosswind on a descent. But not really since then, in now our third year. We just repeated Solvang, and again it was quite windy. I kept waiting for a buffeting issue to arise, but it never did. So, crosswinds with these wheels I declare to be a non-issue.

IbisTouche

We have two tandems with Chris King headsets and a third headset to our tandem nr three !!! No problems but we have to have a fork with a longer steerer when we make the shift.
Carsten & Dorte, Helsingør, Danmark

twocicle

^^^ Ritter (Will) thanks for the info and link to the previous 2011 post. ENVE is certainly the right name for those wheels. Not sure I want to mess with carbon brake surfaces though, but since Zipp stopped making the hybrid 404 the choices for higher spoke deep rims are few if not nil. How has that been going for you?

twocicle

Above was posted on Mar 17th. Have some feedback on these wheels?
Build these yourself, local shop, or ?
How would the flat profile Sapim CX-Ray spokes do on the rear (since they are rated higher strength than the Race)?

uspspro

I've only taken the bike around the neighborhood to bed in the brakes, and settle the bearings. I will have a better review after a real ride.

Unfortunately there was a medical issue that will keep the tandem sidelined for another week or so.

The wheels were built by Cycle Monkey. They are known for building really nice wheels, Rohlhoff builds, etc..

It's important to note that the spokes face different types of forces (repeated bumps, hard cornering, rider torque output). The disc brake is essentially the opposite of a rider putting out like 4000+ Watts through the hub. I'm not sure in which ways the CX-Ray is stronger... but I know that 14/15 double-butted spokes are tried and true in extreme conditions.

twocicle

Thanks. Maybe I'll call them.

I explored around for online builders that have the options listed I'm thinking of, and came up with Prowheelbuilder.com (Vegas). Chris King hubs (R45, and 145mm tandem Universal + $25 stainless rear bearing upgrade), HED Belgium C2 32/hole f/r + velox rim tape, Sapim CX-Ray f/r, DT brass nipples f/r.

I'm just assuming the 3-cross & 32 spokes f/r is the way to go, haven't researched that yet and if a radial front would be ok, or 28 spokes. Their quoted built weight is 1729gm and $1090 + shipping ($54). According to their build sheet, could drop 52gm by using alloy nipples, but haven't had the best luck with those on single bikes, let alone tandems so probably not worth the risk.

As far as Sapim's comparison,
- the CX-Ray is listed as: Strength on middle section: 1600 N/mm2. Also "The CX-Ray still receives the best results in fatigue testing of any spoke."
- the Race as: Strength on middle section: 1350 N/mm2
I haven't found any info on spoke type vs disc usage.

DubT

Just out of curiosity, why would you get this set of wheels? They are not more aero or any lighter than your current Spynergy wheels. Spynergy is coming out with a set of tandem specific, 43 mm deep, carbon wheels with aluminum braking surfaces. I plan to get one for the rear of our bike, I already put a HED 3 on the front

twocicle

Just tinkering and research, checking out what I might build if I wanted to and what the cost point and weight would be. The Spinergy have been a good set of wheels for sure.

I was drawn to the CK universal disc (any rotor) rear hub plus the possibility of building a set with aero spokes and a deeper rim profile. True the HED Belgium rims are only the same 24mm profile as the current Spinergy, and moving up to ENVE (or ZIPP as they discontinued the hybrid) are all carbon but I would prefer to stick with an AL brake surface and not specialty pads, etc.

DubT

Did you see my post about the new 43mm deep carbon rim/aluminum braking surface Spinergy wheels that will be available in the next few months. Ric at Hous of Tandems sent me a note saying they were going to be available. The price for a set will be $1400.

When he has a spare rim I am going to have him replace my rear rim with the 43mm rim. I have a HED3 on the front now, it is a clincher with the aluminum braking surface.

wayne

uspspro

I think in the realm of what I'll call medium-depth rims, that a deeper one isn't necessarily much more aero than another. The wider rims, can also result in a more aero profile - Just look at the recent trend with ENVE and Zipp (Firecrest, 101, etc). They also make the tire have a nicer shape.

The spokes on the Spinergy wheels are around 3x wider than the CX rays as well.

Anyway, I think they are both fine wheel sets, there's nothing wrong with having a couple sets

I'm totally sold on the wider rims though!