What's the lightest tandem you've seen with a dependable, realistic build? I'm starting a project based on a large or X-large Santana Beyond that I want to get under 20lbs with reasonable parts. I'm gonna do a few versions of the build starting with a fairly stock Santana build kit and then replacing parts as needed till I get it under 20. However, I'd like to stick to reasonable parts that you'd want to ride and won't cause problems so no single chainrings, allen key skewers, thin tires, delicate wheels, ect. I'm even gonna try to avoid using Speedplay pedals
Besides the Beyond frame which is 2900g for XL, I know Paketa and Co-Motion claim to offer light frames but I couldn't find actual weights.

Won't happen. You will need to weight weenie on everything to get even close. Plenty of high quality tandems on here with even better than "reasonable" parts that are closer to 30lb than 20.

Unfortunately (for you), I'm with Dean on this. 20 lb is not realistically achievable in a rideable/reliable tandem. I built up my Calfee Tetra (about 200g more than the claimed Santana) with a budget but light build and hit 25 lb. While there are a number of places I could have saved weight, it was all small amounts per part, usually for large differences in price. I could likely have kept the build in the 23-24 range for an extra $1000-2000, but even spending another $5k (my total parts list aside from frame and fork was under $3500) wouldn't have gotten me anywhere near 20 lb.

Leland,

One of the obvious omissions to your list is a Calfee Dragonfly which in a Large/Med is listed with the same 2900gm weight as the Beyond. One big bonus of not going with Santana is that you would have rear spacing options other than the wide 160mm. While 160mm has some benefit, narrower spacing has proven adequate for most tandem teams and is a lighter component weight factor too. For some $2100 less and 260gm more, there is the Tetra frame option.

This claimed 21.4lb Dragonfly would likely hit 20lbs or less if it were not painted (our preference).

Go check out the Calfee Design website for more info.

I would put money down it is not possible to get under 20lbs with any large frame + "reasonable parts*".

* "reasonable parts" = complete component kit that can stand up to full speed use and not extravagantly priced.

To put this in context, my Zero7 with a 700 gram frame, about the lightest group set made, and light cf wheels weighs just under 14 pounds.

Start with a frame 4 pounds heavier and you're up to 18 pounds before you add things like a second crankset etc

Maybe for some ideas...

https://www.bikeforums.net/tandem-cyc...dem-weigh.html

PK

Getting a tandem under 22# as ridden weighted with pedals & cages is a tall order, that 21.4lb Dragonfly mentioned above I bet is weighted not as ridden. Maybe if some manufacture had the technology to produce a nano carbon tandem frame this could be achieved plus maybe a price of 20K are more?

I started out with a similar idea 5 years ago, I started by looking at cranksets, and inveigling Tim Brummer at Lightning to produce a tandem version of his lightweight crankset. You might be able to get a tandem down to around 20 lbs, it might be somewhat dependable/realistic, but I don't think optimal. Its useful to go through the exercise of looking at components on a spreadsheet and taking into account the weight of each. Many a little makes a mickle.

You'd have to start with a really light frame. You might want to find out what Landshark carbon frames weigh as a reference.

Thanks for all the insights and the link to that thread. I work for Santana so I'll definitely be using a Beyond, maybe stock, maybe custom with some grams shaved (who needs a disc mount, rack eyelets, 17" chainstays, and 4 waterbottle mounts?) At first I'm gonna build it up with a nearly standard Santana parts kit only substituting lighter brakes, saddles, a special pair of Spinergies, and pedals. Then I'll do stage 2 and stage 3 builds to see how light it can go and Lightning cranks will probably be a part of that as I've used them for several years. We made the call today to use Dura-ace instead of the lighter Red because Santana has always specced Shimano. I now realize that the "complete bike weights" I saw from Paketa and Co-Motion were without pedals so yeah, getting under 22 is gonna be hard. However, I've built 11lb roadbikes, 26lb enduro bikes, and 30lb DH bikes so I'm up for the challenge. I'll keep you guys posted.

Our stock Beyond (phd) weighs in at 30lbs (maybe a whisper under) ready to ride with pedals and 4 cages. I thought this was pretty good considering we were stepping up from a 49lb Arriva. When we were shopping one bike shop had a 23lb (claimed) Calfee which I believe had manual 2 ring components with a smaller rear cassette, CF cranks, one piece CF stems/bars, light caliper brakes and CF wheels. It was painted so that would have cost them some weight, but other than that I didn't see a lot they could have done and kept it reliable.

Component weights can be deceptive. Taking those one piece CF stems/bars as an example, you may be surprised to find they can weigh more than a decent alloy bar & stem (think Ritchey WCS for example) and cost a heck of a lot more.

Likewise my comment above about rear spacing. Not only does a wide spacing require a bigger rear hub and possibly some added grams for extra frame material, but also much longer crank spindles/BBs, and that of course means more weight.

For a fly-weight build, it is quite easy to build a set of custom wheels weighing less than a set of Spinergy (est ~1800gm 145mm + skewers if I recall correctly).

In this era of awesome handling 900gm lightweight single frames, it is surprising that we can still have 2kg extra weight for a tandem and call these lightweight frames. Besides being a bit more sturdy, the typical no-lateral tandem frame has 1 more seat tube, 1 more BB shell, and 2 rear connector tubes (TT & BT). Not trying to be naive, but does this really need to add +2kg?!

Well no one is making monocoque carbon tandems because the molds would be prohibitively expensive considering the number of units sold. We looked into it and could make a roughly 2kg frame but it'd take a decade to recoup the cost. I weighed all the Beyonds here and there's some mediums at 2780g. The larges and XLs are from 2900-3030. I'm hoping to beat that with careful tube selection and some minor changes. Also, despite appearances ditching the lateral tube doesn't really change weight unless you sacrifice stiffness. You have to use bigger thicker tubes and wider BB shells. It seems to be done more because it seems to be a modern look people like. I prefer the lateral tube look. Bikes have always been triangles and the big crooked square in the middle of a no lat tube bike looks odd to me.

Yes, the 160 rear end and wider cranks are a weight handicap that I'll struggle to overcome but coming from a DH bike background I can appreciate a dishless rear wheel. The special Spinergies I have are 940 & 690g. I may be able to skip using the 88g Ti QR skewers by having the axles threaded and using Ti bolts.

Take a look at Bebop pedals. I bought the Crmo ones and then installed titanium spindles, 75 grams per pedal.

It shouldn't be hard to add up all the component weights without having to actually get them and build the bike. Then you can decide what you need to change and what it will cost (in money and/or performance) just so you can say how light your bike is at the cafe.

When you originally posted, I (and I think others) assumed this was for your own personal build. Is this actually just meant to be a show bike? If so, why the insistence on "reasonable parts"? Is it just so that the press calls it a "rideable lightest tandem ever!!!!"? If it really is a show build, buy whatever is lightest that won't fall apart on the show floor and call it a day. If you really want to build a rideable bike, hitting 20 lb is going to be nearly impossible, and basing it off a stock Santana build with things like Dura Ace are going to just make it harder and doesn't make any sense.

What are you really trying to achieve with this build and why are you doing it?

One reason for not seeing really light tandem frames might be product liability. If a manufacturer builds a frame how does he know how it will be used and what the team weight will be? If you built your own tubes and your own frame then you could build it for the intended use and the actual team weight. And then never sell it to anyone who would exceed that intended weight.

Perhaps a little bit of promoting an insider's company and product? Naw, never happen

Opening up this topic a bit more, does Santana do reasonably priced custom builds on order? I say "reasonably priced" because AFAIK a standard catalog Beyond frame is about on par cost-wise with Calfee (just one example) who makes every build a custom order. So, assume Santana would tack on a chunk to build custom - if at all available.

Well, if they are trying to use the post as a bit of self promotion, it looks like it may have just backfired. Might this be why LelandJT is starting with a "Standard Santana build" before deviating from it rather than starting from the ground up as real custom builds go?

It will be ridden by my girlfriend and I on weekends at rallies, grando fondos, races, Santana Tours, and maybe shown at trade shows. I enjoy building nice, detailed, light bikes (but never delicate show queens) and always have, whether on my dollar or my sponsors. This one is being paid for by Santana and won't be owned by me but will be my personal bike during my time with them. The only real concession being made there is I'd prefer an XL frame with short stem but it's gonna be a large frame with 140 stem for me and swappable so other (shorter) people can use it.

Yes they do customs and for an extra cost in Nobium steel, Scandium, Ti, and Ti/carbon. It varies depending on what you want and how much a stock design has to be changed. I don't think Calfee's fabrication requires precise mitering of the tubes so custom geo changes are quicker and cheaper.

I'm starting with a fairly standard build because all those parts are sitting around here, some used. To drop more weight from that I have to start requesting or buying different parts. Also, I'd like to get it rideable as soon as possible so the GF and I can hit the road. We're getting a little sidetracked here though cuz the purpose of this thread was to see what really light examples already exist and it doesn't bother me at all if they're Calfees, Co-Motions, or Paketas. I'll make a different thread about the bike when it's done.

Ok, so you have your frame, fork (assumed), wheels (assume no disc setup), your next big item to find is a lightest of weight crankset... meaning either daVinci or Lightning. The former is some $500-600 cheaper and has a narrower Q-factor, the latter the lightest possible, potentially BB30 if you wish, but also most expensive and widest Q. FSA is 100-200gm heavier than the others, but cost is equiv to daVinci and Q of the FSA is between the other two.

Other than that, you're just looking at stems, bars, seatposts and saddles. For the captain bars, a 200gm Specialized S-Works SL is ~200gm and $250msrp. Stoker is easy to find a carbon bullhorn TT basebars at 200gm, but you can actually go lighter by hacking off the drops of regular bars (eg, another set of S-Works would obviously be well under 200gm with the drops cut off). I like the light weight and fit of carbon Specialized saddles, but seats are always a personal choice.

Lastly, once you have all your components, go replace every non-Ti bolt you have (eBay), and don't overlook the weight of bar wrap either, and trim whatever extra seatpost length may be present.

No joke, if you're shooting for 20lbs, you're build will need helium in the tubes.

Actually I think that the Calfee tubes are precisely mitered as they are glued (epoxy) together in the jig before wrapping the joints.

Could be wrong, but I was under that impression also.

PK

Vacuum is the new helium, y'know.

And don't forget superlight cables/housing (Aican, Power Cordz, etc), carbon fiber hoods, doing away with bar tape altogether (padded gloves don't count in the weight of the bike), full carbon unpadded saddles, no water bottle cages (camelbacks don't count in bike weight) and change out the least stressed bolts with plastic or aluminum if you have to since it is lighter than ti. You could always throw on a Recon Aluminum cassette (you'll have to replace it every few rides, but getting under 20lb is what matters, right?). And you should just hand build your own wheels using some low profile carbon tubulars with low spoke count and heavily butted 15-18 Gauge spokes. With all that, you might get close to your target.

Without all that, you can still follow the advice you got immediately after posting: It can't be done feasibly so either build a light (<25 lb) but reliable bike, or arbitrarily aim for 20 lb and build an extraordinary-bragging-rights-that-hangs-on-the-wall-so-it-doesn't-break bike.

When I was building our Calfee, there were a number of choices I made to go with slightly heavier parts because they were either significantly cheaper or more reliable and trustworthy. After two seasons, the only things I have changed is the captain's saddle (the full carbon experiment was awful and not worth the 40g difference from an old school Selle Italia SLR Ti @ 135g) and Nashbar Alpe D'Huez pedals (225g per pair) which are surprisingly light and so cheap ($35) that even if they only lasted 2 years they would still be cheaper than any other option that lasted 10 years and was similarly light (they are actually still in perfect shape, and I have them on 4 different bikes with no issues so far over 2 years). Also, if you do care about cost, don't ignore alloy cockpit alternatives and minor brands that are doing great CNC work. We went with Aerozine seatposts (182g each @ 350mm), Origin 8 Propulsion stoker bar (170g), Planet X brakes (205g for the pair), and a Loaded USA headset (66g).

When I did our build, I set 25 lb as a goal, but forced myself to keep to two bigger and more important principles: It had to stay under budget and it had to be reliable enough that nothing would break under normal use because it was silly light. So far, we have had zero problems. It could have been lighter, but not without sacrificing those more important principles. If it came in at 26 or 27 lb keeping to those principles, I would have still done it the way I did it because the weight goal is arbitrary, but the ride quality and enjoyment of not getting stuck on the side of the road is not.