I doubt that anything will cause me to change my mind - so probably more than 10 years. But I am using 8 speed cassettes on my derailleur touring bikes and fold up bike, I see no need to switch to what some might consider an upgrade.

A side note - a friend recently bought a used carbon cyclocross racing frame that takes cantilevers or V brakes, he said everybody wants disc so now is the time to find great bargains on bikes that won't handle discs.

I've used that stuff for years - it's great!. It is rebranded Jagwire Ripcord but costs half as much. Unlike conventional brake housing, with Ripcord you don't have to file or dremel the rough end smooth after cutting. I can cut Ripcord cleanly with linesman pliers or Park cutter. Ripcord weighs significantly less than conventional brake housing due to the use of kevlar strands. Weight savings are not insignificant on bikes with full length housing runs from disc brakes to drop bars. It works pretty good as shifter housing too.

My only complant with the Nashbar product is that it's about 25-30cm too short for bikes with full length housing runs from disc brakes to drop bars.

Nashbar used to sell this housing/cable kit for $6 only 3-4 years ago on 20% off sale - now it never sells for under ~11 with tax.

https://jagwire.com/products/v/mountain_pro_brake

BTW, "compressionless" housing is a phrase normally applied to shifter housing, not brake housing:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cables.html

Jagwire makes some for Brakes 10 Meter Compressionless Shop Rolls | Jagwire

Things have happened in bikes since Sheldon Died .

I put it on Kelley's cantilever 26in. mountain bike, and it seems to help! She says she notices a difference. There's a lot more wiggle room with canti's though, so that I am not 100% sure of.

i don't quite understand the argument here.

i got my $1.50/pair tektro v-brakes (includes generic pads) and my $2 set
of general duty jagwire housing (includes brake cables) off china's taobao.

set 'em up, and can squeeze the brakes and skid to a halt if i desire. that
means freezing the wheels up, right? so what the hell will compressionless
housing do for me?

ok.....put a $9 BB5 on the rear of a new disc-only frame. what a piece of
carp! replaced with $19 BB7. much improved over the BB5, but in no way
equal to the cheap tektros.

personally, i'm waiting for technology to solve yet another non-problem.
i'm sure pretty soon we'll get a voice activated cell phone ap that will
activate wireless disc brakes. pretty nifty! only drawback is you need
to use your v-brakes to stop first in order to safely access your cellphone.

shhh....not so loud.....them airbags and seatbelts are required by law, selected
by unelected gub'mint hoohahs....with input (and special "funding") provided
by...........brake and air bag manufacturers.

do you really want gub'mint reg'laters determining your bikecycle's brake system?

Ha. Maybe you got the lower-quality direct-from-china export components people are talking about. Lower end stuff for a lower end price.

I trust the LBS! They get my dollar!

HA back at ya. right. i got cheap, yet very effective, cheap, inexpensive v-brakes.
they work great. i can modulate, or i can lock up the wheels. what more do i need?

your dollar? sounds like a heckuvalotta dollars for blingbling.
i'd rather spend my spare loot on airfare to go..........cycle touring.

did i mention them v-brakes and reg'lar housing was cheap?

Hehe! To each their own. I prefer to save my airfare and go cycle-touring right out my front door

Not calling BS, but I have never seen that happen with a lot of weight on the bike, wet weather, or extremely long descents. Some of us just weigh a lot. I do remember thinking Cantis were the bomb back in the days when I weighed a hard 195, these days not so effective. And I like rim brakes.

I think the question on housings as with everything else is that at the low end the cost is trivial, so who wants squishy less effective housing? Show of hands for ineffective crap housing you probably paid more for, if you don't own pliers and do your own work. There is always some cheap ass in touring who if you ask them do they want to pay a buck extra for a better product will say they could fly to Hanoi and tour for a month on that buck. But for some of us I don't want to pay more to get a crappier product, shoot me.

And then, at the upper end, some people are spending what the average teenager at the local LBS pays for a downhill bike, 4K, and they aren't counting the pennies.

Again, this may be exactly how you roll. But just because of the way I was brought up, no virtue on my part. I don't smoke, drink, do Mary Jane, or anything else; The doctor won't let me eat out. I don't go to live entertainment, because with 3 kids it would crush me on cost; I recently got fed up with cable and cancelled that; I never got swept up in the overhousing thing, and live in a small house I own free and clear; don't go to starbucks, etc... etc... I am sure some folks out there are putting every penny they save towards airfair, if that is a new term for recreational drugs, or whatever turns their crank. It's pretty rare in the modern world to see people living really close to the bone, and saving, and all that crap, in North America. I doubt that the reason most people can't afford 15 dollar housings (or $150) is because they are saving every single dollar for their next tour.

I wil add that at least 5% of the joy I feel on a bike tour is the joy of riding a bike. I like to have a nice bike that performs well. I don't spend frivolously, but I do keep high quality components and high-performing upgrades in mind.

Yeah, at least 5%. I would say at least 5% is for real, stuff that reduces pain and improves efficiency. That isn't counting the constant feedback one gets from the bike, that on a nice bike is delightful, everything perfect at every turn.

There are people who tour, like my wife, for whom the bike is not really a hobby, but if you are into bikes, where better to put the money than in the activity where you crank out 80 miles a day for weeks on end. You don't need a fancy touring bike to tour, you don't even need a touring bike. But if you like bikes, why not. Stucke the worlds longest touring tourist, doesn't really ride a touring bike. Obviously the definition of a touring bike should almost rest on him, but it turns out his ride is a huge outlier most people would not accept, but it clearly works. Most people want something "better". If you have the cheapest LHT you are already riding higher on the wants vs needs scale than most people with bikes.

I have had BB7 on several bikes, and it has been a pain in the ass for me. Always seems to need adjusting, always rubbing (especially when they heat up on big steep downhills), always screeching (even with organic pads). Just got really tired of it. Since only one of the pads actually moves, you need to adjust the stationary pad to be so close to the rotor that any imperfection produces rubbing. So, one day I heard about the TRP HY/RD, which are mostly cable, but hydraulic just on the last bit. They got good reviews, so I decided to make the switch. The bike shop recommended compressionless housing for these brakes, so I went for it, and I don't think the housing added much to the total cost at all (can't remember exactly now). The brakes themselves seem very nice. There is no adjustment needed for the pads, they are self-centering, and they both move onto the rotor. Excellent modulation too, much better than the BB7. I honestly don't know why so many people seem to love the BB7, they are a piece of crap as far as I'm concerned, sorry.

That's funny, it certainly appears that he rides touring bikes, custom heavy-duty ones at that:

https://www.bikechina.com/heinzstucke1z.html

"Now about my bicycle. I have met a lot of bicycle enthusiasts who asked many questions about speeds, gear ratio, the weight of equipment carried, the height of the saddle, handlebars and many other technical things that I have never thought very much about. Some will probably shake their heads in disbelief over some of the figures I give, but what I wanted was a strong, reliable cycle which needed as little maintenance and repair as possible. The cycle was given to me by a bicycle company in Germany. It weighs about 25 kgs because it has a reinforced frame, thick spokes and solid luggage-carriers. I insisted on these things because on earlier tours I had always had trouble with broken spokes and broken carriers, etc. Imagine a broken frame in the middle of the desert! The bicycle has 26" wheels and a three-speed Torpedo hub-gear (incorporating pedal brake). I never felt that the three speeds were insufficient and I am happy with the little service the Torpedo has required. As of today I have pedalled about 385,000 kms."





He more recently switched to a Bike Friday Pocket Llama, a bike the manufacturer characterizes as their "expedition touring" model. He needed a folder to easily fit into boats/planes for the island-hopping he planned to do to complete the last 5% of countries he toured.

https://www.bikefriday.com/community/stucke



BTW - DT hubs do not have loose ball bearings, they use cartridge bearings, since at least 2004.

You have an old picture since then He used a paint pen to write the names of the places in white on the black .

The bike has gotten even more compact ..

Now he is Sponsored for A Bike by Brompton ..

Some people just don't know how to set up the BB7's and I suppose that in itself is a fault in the system. It took me a few tries to get it right but when I did get it right the brakes got so much better. They are now almost comparable to shimano Hydro brakes. However most people also have no idea how to set up hydro brakes either (the squeeze lever, tighten bolts approach is wrong, so very wrong).
When the BB7's are set up properly they have superb stopping power and only make this pleasing 'hurrrr' noise when braking. With metallic pads.
I won't say they are completely silent when wet, every brake, even rim brakes, make nasty sounds when wet, but luckily discs dry out really quickly.

Ok, so I guess the multiple professional mechanics who I paid to help me get those brakes to work right, in different cities (we've lived around the country a bit over the years) all just didn't know how to set up BB7. Sure.

Well it's actually possible. I don't have that much trust in bike mechanics in general since they usually need to do the stuff quickly rather than do a good job of it. I've had issues with every bike mechanic's work I've ever tried and have since started doing all of my own work and am much happier. Most bike mechanics also mount hydro discs wrong due to the industry pushing the wrong quick and dirty method instead of teaching the correct way of doing it, which takes significantly longer, but afterwards you never have to touch the caliper again.

For instance, have you ever had a mechanic true and properly tension a wheel? I haven't. The wheels were always straight as arrows but the tensions were all over the place.
I've had badly adjusted rim brakes, the most extreme example of which was where one rim brake pad had a toe in angle of about 30 degrees.
I've had badly adjusted bearings
I've had a pedal destroyed by an LBS (and it wasn't a cheap one at that)
Etc etc.
The fact that someone works at a bike shop is not yet any kind of qualifier of decent work. Then add the time component and what you'll likely get is crap.

Or you just had oil on you pads/discs and never noticed.

His beloved bike is a three speed, with few features similar to what other people ride. He tours and he has a bike tours on but it isn't a touring bike in either the current euro or NA format, though he has now added a Brompton. But basically I am secure in my opinion until the touring section of say a Trek or a Surly, has a Heinz bike in it. Not going to happen.


Good information. I will stop spreading the 10 year old info. That is what I always read, and the only source I seriously considered buying them from was Spicer, they had great prices. Well I guess I now know why... Old stock.

I agree with that and think NG remark is off. In particular since cable actuated disc brakes are hardly the bread and butter of bike shops, unless all the issues are the same.

You have, however, written two healthy in length responses without spilling the secrets, care to comment or point us to YOutube.

As it happens I have had very well built touring wheels from the LBS. I go there because a few of the people tour, and they spend a ton of time servicing courier's bikes which have some of the same durability issues we have. But picked at random I wouldn't be hopeful.

The BB7 setup really isn't a secret, it just takes a bit of fiddling and feel to it. The way you do it is you loosen both of the adjustment screws completely, loosen the attachement bolts and then tighten the wheelside adjustment screw for 20 clicks and the outside adjustment screw for 10. If it's not biting then adjust one on both sides until it does. But the important thing is, that the adjustment screws can't be too tight, or you'll bend the rotor when adjusting and then the whole thing will be off. The result is uneven pad/rotor contact and poor power + squeal. I tighten the adjustment screws so that I can just barely turn the wheel and i turn the wheel slowly while I tighten the attachment bolts. This should get the caliper as straight as it can be, even if the rotor is a bit wobbly.

With hydro discs you take out the pads, push in the pistons and line up the caliper with the rotor by eye. It's a good idea to line up with the straightest portion of the rotor. After it's perfectly lined up (this takes a bit time and fiddling) you put the pads back in and squeeze the lever until the pads make contact. But at this point the brake will rub horribly. This should not be normal, but due to every single brake out there having a dominant piston, it's de facto normal. The way you correct this is by putting a small flathead screwdriver behind the pad that is not rubbing and squeeze the lever. A big squeeze will have a big effect and a small squeeze will have a small effect. After the pads have been centralized you're ready to go.

If you do the manufacturer recommmended method you'll end up with a caliper that's noncenter due to every brake having a slightly dominant piston. Some brakes have more dominant pistons than others.

Here's the link for the hydro adjustment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akIWGqEE0PY

I have BB7's on all my bikes. Two issues, both user error, formerly kept them from being great but have gotten better now that I know what I'm doing.

1. My rotors would go out of true. Mounted to the bike, they're fine, but when I loaded/unloaded the bike from the trunks and backseats of cars, I wasn't careful with my rotors and I slightly bent them (think: less than a millimeter).

2. I contaminated my brake pads. Touching the rotors all the time with oily bike shop hands got a little grease in the pad, and it sounded awful, like metal-on-metal. Now, I take the wheels off if I'm cleaning the bike so I don't get dirty water running down the frame to the rotors, and I keep my hands off them (no reason to touch them anyways), and I'm extra careful with bike grease.

All I had to do was load the bike in the car carefully, and not touch the rotors, and they work extremely well with no issues. Both of these problems cannot be addressed by an adjustment of the brake itself, which the mechanics you went to likely did.

I'm not going to pursue this debate much beyond this post, because a) it's off-topic from the original point of the thread, and b) I can already see from the responses of elcruxio that he or she is not going to accept anything I say. But since you seem to think I'm being unreasonable, I'll try to explain why I have this opinion about BB7. I have had three different bikes with those brakes - Salsa Fargo, Co-Motion Americano and Co-Motion Divide, and another bike with similar cable-actuated disc brakes by Shimano that work pretty much the same way (Novara Safari from 2007). In each case, I have sought out the best local mechanics I could find in the area where I was living at the time. You can tell someone who is good at what they do, by talking to them and paying attention to how they respond to questions, as well as watching how they work and looking at the results. The guys I use tend to be very knowledgeable, they obviously know their stuff and can talk your ear off about whatever they are doing. They worked extensively on the bikes I have owned, and I was able to sit there watching and asking questions etc. I saw the process, and their work was excellent. So the comment about them not knowing what they are doing just doesn't sit right with me. Anyway, here's why I don't like the BB7 brakes.

The bike shop guys I worked with were usually able to set up the brakes so that they worked ok for a while. But they would always start to give me problems again as soon as I did pretty much anything on the bike - e.g. remove the wheels, or when I went on some big downhill which required heavy use of the brakes (prime example is Kneeland Hill back near Eureka, CA - 2000 feet of gain in 5 miles, very steep and lots of switchbacks). Going down the Kneeland hill, the BB7 brakes would start rubbing almost immediately. I think this is due to the fundamental design flaw with this type of brake: Only one of the pads moves, the other one is stationary, which means you have to adjust the stationary pad to be quite close to the rotor. As a result, any imperfection in the rotor tends to result in rubbing, and also when the system heats up on a big downhill (supposedly the strong point of discs, given how many people move to them out of fears of blowing their tires by heating up the rims with rim brakes). Instead of being "set and forget", the BB7 (and the ones on the Safari) were constantly reminding me of their presence. I heard them squealing in the wet, I heard them rubbing going down the big hill, and they always seemed to go "out" in some small way after I did something else on the bike that had nothing to do with the brakes (e.g. switching tires).

Now, I'll readily acknowledge that some people are able to get them set up "just so", and that they are happy, and that's great. But I have tried to like them, really I have, as is evidenced by the multiple bikes I have tried them on. I *really* wanted to like these brakes, because everybody told me how wonderful and trouble free they are. But that just hasn't been my experience.

Here's the thing: If there is a component that requires such delicate handling and adjustment that people have to post justifications and "well you just have to know how" type comments, then that is a big red flag for me, especially on a touring bike. I don't want stuff that needs to be handled with kid gloves all the time. And I don't want components that (if what elcruxio is saying is true) most people, even otherwise expert bike shop mechanics, don't know how to adjust correctly. Even if it is possible to get them "just so", requiring arcane knowledge that apparently isn't available to most people (just google "adjusting bb7 disc brakes"), then eventually I lose interest and want to find something different.

I really think the flaw in the BB7 is that stationary pad on one side, and that's one of the reasons why I got very interested in the TRP HY/RD - they require no pad adjustment at all, both pads move into the rotor symmetrically, and this seems intuitively "right" to me. And, since these brakes use cable all the way down to the housing, I was able to keep using the inline brake levers which I like so much (they allow me to ride and use the brakes on the top of the drop bars, which is where I ride mostly, and also it means I don't have to reach forward to use the other brakes when going down steep hills). Sure, the HY/RD will get yearly maintenance to ensure the fluid is ok, and that is an added complication that the cable-only disc brakes don't have. But I have tried the cable-only design, and I really dislike it, so I'm trying the next thing. I'm all about functionality, whatever works, and I gave the BB7 a fair shot, and I ended up losing patience with them. That is why I call them "crap". If you try something multiple times, and every time it just gives you headaches, then I will go and look for something better. And I think I have the right to have an opinion about them, without being told that I "just don't know what I'm doing". There are lots of other comments I have seen from people over the years running crazyguyonabike, not to mention here on bikeforums, as well as speaking to the mechanics in bike shops, so I know I'm not alone in my opinion of this brake. I readily accept that some people might be able to get them set up satisfactorily, but it's just my opinion that anything so finicky and requiring such baby treatment is not what I want on my touring bike, which I want to "just work" without a lot of faffing around.

Neil