Have you tried this, or are you just treating this as a thought problem?

Trust me, I have tried this. I've ridden centuries in sub-freezing temperatures every winter for five years now, and I have a pretty good idea what works and what does not. I have not found a way to make SPD's work in really cold weather.

You are of course free to disagree, but my point was: it's not a matter of insulation. I already have shoe covers. Thicker socks inside the same shoes do not insulate any better, especially if they restrict circulation.
You are quite right to emphasize that these conditions are rare on tour. My experience with this phenomenon has been on one day all day rides from home, not touring. Some such rides have been down in the single digits F, and indeed below zero.

But I believe I've experienced this even in comparatively mild conditions. On New Year's Day this year I rode 115 miles, temps above freezing, wearing good neoprene shoe covers and puffy smartwool socks. My feet just got cooler as the day went on. Not brutally cold, but I could feel that cold spot in the bottom of my foot, gradually spreading.

Maybe it was in my mind, but in my mind it was in my feet, so what do I know.

Thanks for the input. I would like some shoes that can work with both clips and SPD pedals. I am considering these now, as long as I can find them in a more subdued color. At first look it seemed like they would be hard to get into clips with all that bric a brac, but after a closer look it seems like the are pretty smooth.

You're welcome. They come in a black model as well. I've uploaded a photo of those. I like the bright blue but not for everyone. They have pretty good reviews and no one has mentioned any issues with getting into the clips.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=498888

I do not blame the SPD cleats, instead I blame cycling shoes. Even with toe covers, plastic bags over socks to stop the wind from coming in the mesh vents, even shoe covers, I do not wear cycling shoes below 30 degrees (F). My winter cycle shoes are a normal summer type shoe, but they are size 45 when I normally wear 44.5. Thus with those shoes I have the extra room I need to wear thick wool socks without compressing my feet. The insole that sits above the cleat hardware acts as an insulator, thus I think the cleat has minimal cooling effect.

Below 30 degrees (F) I use a Goretex lined hiking shoe or regular hiking boot.

I bought some DexShell Hytherm Pro socks, but have not tried them in the cycling shoes yet. I am hoping they will give me another 5 or 10 degrees.

I use Bombas socks while cycling. They seem to keep my feet fairly warm and they're comfortable. The issues I run into most are my fingers. I had frostbite in 2014 on my right hand. I didn't lose any fingers but the nerves are permanently damaged so anything too cold or too hot bothers them.

While it is theoretically true that some of your body heat may eventually reach the ground via the route of the cleat to the pedal to the crank arm to the bottom bracket to the axle to the wheels and across the tires, the actual amount of heat lost that way is going to be so small as to be unmeasurable. And that would only happen if you are riding in shoes without insoles and without socks. Even a little bit of insulation is going to keep your feet from losing much heat through the cleat.

Heat loss is area dependent as well. You will lose more heat through the tops of the shoes than through the cleat.

Perhaps you just haven't looked at the problem in the proper way. I ride a lot in sub-freezing temperatures. Over the years I've tried a lot of things to keep my feet warm while using SPD pedals and found lots of ways to make them work effectively. No single thing I've done has work alone but together the ways I prepare my shoes has been effective. First, I seal the cleat slots. It's not the cleat that sucks the heat out of my feet but the cold air infiltrating through the slot that is the problem. I use aluminum furnace tape across the bottom of the shoe under the insole to not only seal the hole but to provide a reflective layer to reflect some of the heat back towards me.

Next I use an insulated insole. There are aerogel insoles out there that insulate quite well. There are also sheep fleece insoles that trap air and provide a lot of warmth.

You are correct that thicker socks in the same size shoes that you wear in summer don't make your feet warmer. But why are you wearing the same size shoes for winter? Go up a size or two and you can fill the extra space with more sock. That works wonders for keeping your feet warm.

Summer shoes are made to shed heat not keep it in. There are a lot of winter boots out there that do an excellent job of keeping your feet warm and still allow the use of SPD pedals. They tend to be heavy but not any heavier than the winter boots that people use. You can even find some waterproof bicycle shoes that do a good job of keeping your feet warm and dry with the proper preparation (see above). All of these work better in a slightly larger size than a summer shoe.

Have you tried putting one little disposable heat pack in your glove? I have used them when canoeing in sub freezing weather, wearing them inside of my rubber gloves when my hands were frequently wet with ice cold water helped a lot. But I have not seen a need for them when biking, ... yet.

Cold weather is tough on extremities. Your hands and feet are your body's radiators. If you are producing excessive heat, your feet and hands get sweaty because excess heat flowed to them. If you are not producing excessive heat, your body limits heat flow to hands and feet to conserve heat for the body core and head, then your hands and feet get very cold. Thus, there are times when I am biking in 20 degree weather where even with ski gloves my hands are cold and other times in the same weather that I take my gloves off to try to lose some of the excess heat I am generating. Sometimes I even bring thick mittens on a winter bike ride, but mittens do not work well for things like pushing buttons on my bike computer.

I have a handlebar bag, when I put my hands behind the bag to cut the wind, that helps a lot.

you can certainly see how those doohickies that fit over your bars like giant mitts , for winter riding, really work. Nothing new there, snowmobilers and motorcyclists have been doing this for years.

Interesting thread for me not being from a cold area. Lots of ideas and so I enjoyed the different opinions.

I move from cages long ago. Clippless was a revelation. I had more problems with my toes going numb on long rides from pulling up not from temperature. Arches hurting from soft shoes.

Recently (over a year ago) I switched to flats on my mtb with 5 10 shoes. I was surprised at how positive the "lock in" the pins were with a flat specific shoe. Getting off the bike is much easier and I get why the OP was going in this direction. I was surprised how quickly I adapted to not trying to pull up. When I ride clippless now I think I pull up more than I did in the past just because I miss it a bit from being on flats. The wide platform flats keep the surface where your foot interacts with the bike less inclined for arch pain even on long rides.

If it were me I would go with the platforms some good warm hiking boots and ditch the traps

At this point I am 80 percent of even more on flats with my MTB. Still on clipless for my road bike.

If I were to tour and I have done a few over the years I would go with spd and carry some shoes. It is true they do not pack well. I would stuff socks and other items in to maximize space. I just would not want the same shoes 12 hours plus every day.

[MENTION=21724]cyccommute[/MENTION], thanks for that constructive response! : thumb:

To clarify, the rides I refer to were long rides (100+ miles), not touring, so certainly a bit off topic. And they weren't particularly cold, starting in the high twenties, reaching the mid thirties, ending a little below freezing. I had increased my shoe size as you suggest, perhaps not enough. I had adequate insulation on top, obviously not enough below. That was my point.

I don't mean to imply my body heat was getting transmitted to the ground, but rather to the air. Metal transmits heat well, and quickly moving air takes it away.

The heat loss I'm talking about took many hours. I was plenty warm over my whole body, with the exception of thumbs, fingers, and feet. I conclude that my body heat was leaving those areas faster than it was reaching them. And it was leaving them and into the air, both directly and from the bike.

While there is a bit of heat loss through the metal parts of the bicycle, I think your experiencing more of a physiological response to the cold than a thermodynamic one. Feet and hands get cold due to decreases in circulation as the body pulls more heat to the core. The surface area to volume ratio is higher for your fingers and toes so you radiate more heat there as well. Add in shoes that fit tighter and gloves that fit tighter and everything starts to works against you keeping warm.

well, I'll be the first to say that 160km + rides in any temp is quite an achievement, let alone in temps below 0c. Like cross country skiing in cold temps, doing a physical activity as long as a 100 miler is always going to be a challenge in those temps dealing with sweating, cool down at pauses, accumulation of sweat over time and how it can chill you.
What you've done I wouldnt be up to, like I said, quite a challenging thing to do.

[MENTION=21724]cyccommute[/MENTION], you may be right. I have no laboratory tests &c to support my idea, just my own impressions. I can't ever ride the same ride in the same weather with different gear. Nonetheless I think it's something to keep in mind, as we look over our equipment and prepare for long cold rides.

[MENTION=73614]rhm[/MENTION], I think a large part of the problem is simply that our bodies have to send that warm blood down long limbs so the blood that gets to our feet is considerably colder than our core temp before it even starts trying to warm our feet and fingers. (I have spent a lifetime trying to warm feet at the ends of skinny 34" pant legs. My fingers at the ends of 34" shirt sleeves don't do much better.) I suspect those with stockier, heavier limbs do far better (but I have never been able to get those guys to let me try them to see for myself).

Ben

I have not, no. I use them when I'm camping and they're fine as long as they don't make contact with my fingers which they wouldn't in the gloves. I purchased a new pair of gloves that I'm hoping will help. I usually don't wear gloves long when I'm touring. The first few miles until I warm up. I sweat pretty easily and doesn't take me long to strip down to shorts and a t-shirt even on cold mornings. I'm fine as long as I keep riding or hit a downhill. At which case I'll layer back up again. I moved once in a snowstorm and used the old medical glove trick but that was before my frostbite and haven't tried it since. I'll try the heat packs though!

Also, the foot muscles don't get much exercise while cycling so that limits warming circulation vs while walking or running. Feet & esp toes can swell during cold, I read that some cold-weather bikers emphasize having a roomy shoe though I'm sure rhm has already thought about that. OTOH due to hard-to-fit feet I've been dealing w/inadequate winter footwear for decades so I'm semi-immune to the cold. Cold-numbed feet aren't fun but unless conditions are pretty terrible one won't get frostbite.

Well anyway I look now at posts about electric socks & chemical foot warmers--apparently not perfect solutions but might work for some bikers.

I previously related a recent episode where I stopped on a steel bridge in sub zero weather to take some sunrise photos and my feet froze (well, not literally). I rode for about 1/2 hour without them rewarming and they only got better when I stopped and walked my bike for about 5-10 minutes. I also think it was the fact that the foot stays pretty stationary on the pedals and that thicker socks only really work in a roomier shoe.

I used to ice climb a lot and it was pretty common to spend most of the belay kicking and wiggling my toes even in a thickly insulated boot.

I've never noticed my feet swelling during cold weather. If anything, it's the opposite. My feet tend to shrink slightly during cold weather and require tightening my shoes slightly. During the summer, my feet can swell enough to make the shoe painfully tight even with a relatively thin sock.

The reason that you get a roomier shoe for winter riding is so that you can put more insulation inside the shoe. Thicker socks and thicker insoles take up a lot of room. If you wear the same sized shoe as you do in the summer, you just don't have as much room.

There are a couple of things at work here. Yes, a steel bridge will suck some of the heat out of your feet but, assuming an open deck bridge, your feet are also surrounded by a lot of cold air. A solid deck bridge has more thermal mass and no air circulation so it won't get as cold.

Other issues are that we cyclists don't move our feet much while pedaling. You are correct that if you are any good at riding a bike, your feet are stationary and your ankle is moving and flexing but your feet are mostly locked in one place. That one of the reasons that our feet tend to hurt after hours of riding. We just aren't moving them and they can cramp and hurt. When you walk, you are flexing the foot from the toes to the ankle and the muscles are consuming energy and producing heat. My feet never get cold when I'm hiking or when I cross country ski because my feet are flexing all the time.

Same with our hands. If you are XC skiing properly, your hands are letting go of the pole and recapturing it. On a bicycle, you use your finger to brake but that's not something you are constantly doing.

And, yes, you should wear larger shoes for bicycling in the winter.

I've had a few weeks riding with toe clips. I like it. At first it was very awkward just getting started. Then I could ride but was still thinking I'd made a mistake. Now more and more my toe flips over the pedal and my foot slides in without a fuss.

Switching from clipless to caged pedals
 

I must have flipped the pedal hundreds of thousands of times without thinking about... Then once every other year or so, it takes three or four attempts and I'm wobbling all over the place... Go figure :/

I also wear soccer shoes for biking and lifting weights. And, of course, for playing indoor soccer. They are comfortable, simple, and are less clunky than running shoes.

Do they have stiff soles so as not to flex when you pedal?

Hmm they might not be as hard as some would like. It depends on the model. Some are fairly hard. But they work for me.

I also use clipless though.

I've gone from clipless to clips back and forth over the decades, from one bike to the next. Setting up toe-clips right now after being off bikes for 15 years or so. The main thing I like about both is being able to pull up on the pedals and use different sets of muscles. I hope I'm not the only one that does that:) That's where those half clips would be useless I think...

I have a few hundred miles on these and can attest to their utility, comfort, and simplicity. They hold as well (almost) as my clip less, but are so simple to get out of. I can also wear regular shoes (no more grinding on concrete when I walk, garnering too much attention in places where I'd rather blend in). I feel more secure standing and pedaling too, as the Lambdas have a super wide plate form.

I'm SOLD!

I used toe clips for years before clipless pedals were invented. I prefer clipless (with SPD), but on my foldup bike I use toe clips.

On some of my bikes I use pedals that are SPD on one side, platform on the other. I do not consciously lift with my feet, but I have noticed if I wear regular shoes on the bike, I am so used to lifting my feet that my shoes do not stay on the pedals exactly where I want them.

Half-clips AFAIK intended just to keep foot from sliding too far forward. & maintaining proper foot position is one of the nice features of clipless. One can get good position also with clips or platform but more dependent on having the right shoe.