moniemoe73

Hi Everyone,

I am looking to replace my "adventure" bike. Currently a extra small '97 Randonee.

I am stuck between the Surly Troll and the Velo Orange Piolet. I am stoked that they both come pretty small (I am 5'1) with the capability to fit really fat 26" tires, a combo that doesn’t happen often. Help me decide!

Things to note:

- I do not weigh much so I do not need a "burly" frame. Even if I load it up with everything and the kitchen sink it will still not have to carry that much weight comparatively. Plus lugging around a heavy bike that’s a pretty high percentage of your weight gets REAL tiring.
- I plan to ride long distance over dirt, gravel, and of course some pavement. ADVENTURE!!
- I like drop bars more then flat, but considering dirt drops.
- I like to sit pretty upright.
- No preference on disc or rim brakes.
- I try to put weight pretty evenly front and back.

Thanks so much for your help!


Troll | Bikes | Surly Bikes

VO Piolet Frameset

LlamaBikes

I know it's not what you're asking for but when you mentioned Adventure bikes I remembered that Rawland just announced a new 26" adventure bike. Not so much traditional touring oriented though, so it depends on what you're after, and it might not be small enough in 54cm...

Rawland unveils two new adventure bikes

bikemig 

The troll is not designed around a drop bar; how does the top tube length look compared to your road bike? There is a really long thread here on mtb drop bar conversions and the top tube length can be a problem.The Piolet frame geometry may be better optimized for a drop bar.

Also the camargue is still available in your size. That may be a better bike for your intended use.

https://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/frames/camargue/camargue-frameset.htmlhttps://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/frames/camargue/camargue-frameset.html

And it's on sale since they're discontinuing the model; too bad I really liked it.

seeker333

You should look closely at the LHT. Only reason to look at Troll is if you intend to run an internal gear hub or SS, and/or if you intend to ride primarily off-road. Those big tires are nice on rocky terrain but a major energy suck on the pavement.

If you are always going to run derailer(s) then LHT is a better touring bike. LHT has a shorter reach than Troll, as it is intended primarily for drop bar use, whereas Troll is more of a MTB intended for flat bar. LHT has 46cm chainstays, Troll has 42cm CSs, thus more likely to have issues with heel strike depending on rack, bags, and bag placement. Wheel removal/flat repairs with fenders and vertical dropouts on the LHT are easier too. LHT 26" is perfectly capable of handling most any navigable trail, dirt or fire road.

Surly is owned by QBP, worlds largest bike parts distributor, and they probably sell >10X as many framesets and bikes as VO. Surly frames are built by Maxway, the leading bike frame builder in Taiwan. It is hard to imagine an advantage going with VO, unless you just really love a specific feature or the finish color. Like the Troll, I notice the Piolet has 42cm chainstays (too short for most panniers). Troll and Piolet come in 5 sizes, while LHT comes in 9 sizes and is more likely to fit well. If you expect to ACTUALLY RIDE this bike for 5-7 hours a day, day after day on a long tour you will definitely want the best fit possible.

moniemoe73

Yeah the Ravn would be absolutely fabulous if it came smaller (my pocketbook would also like cheaper) but what a rad bike.

moniemoe73

@bikemig The XS Trolls top tube is a little shorter then my most comfortable bike I use for lighter touring. Thanks for the camargue suggestion. I will read into that a bit one more but looks like another good option.

@Seeker33 I didn't look in the LHT because I used to have one and I hated how it handled. I hear the bigger sizes are better but I think with the smaller sizes they overcompensate for toe over lap with angling the head or raking the fork too much but it was just squirrelly. Which is too bad because it is so easy to find them used.

The Randonee that it is replacing does go more off road and currently has 2" slicks on it that I sometimes switch out with 2.4" knobbies. I have a San Marcos that I use more for paved touring.

But thank you for bringing up the chain stay length. I am always forget pay attention to that. I am just always to concerned w toe strike I don't think about the heel.

Thanks for all the thoughts everyone!

elcruxio

Did you try the lht in 26 or 28 wheel size?

djb

monie, I've been meaning for a while to start a thread about 26in frame suggestions as well as I've been mulling over the Troll idea for a while now.
I'm 5'10" so the 26in thing is more for the practical side of travelling in countries where 26 stuff is more available, I've been thinking of a Latin America trip for a long time, but family stuff in my life has been a priority lately.

Like you, I am pretty much convinced to go drop bars. I ride both a mtn bike with riser bars with a slight back angle to the grips area, and a drop bar bike (have toured on dropbar bikes for over 25 years) and its pretty clear to me that a drop bar bike that fits me properly is the way to go for overall riding comfort.
The Salsa Cowbell drops are very appealing to me, less angled out than the Woodchippers, but with a bit of flare compared to reg drops, which I see as an advantage on rougher roads.

So, on the drop bar note, I also have concerns about the top tube length of the Troll (and even the LHT) compared to my dropbar bike (a Specialized Tricross) which really fits me well--and which numbers I basically want to emulate on another frame (especially seat to hoods distance).

concerning the chainstay lengths. While the short stays on the Troll of 42cm are short, numerous people have successfully used rear racks like the Tubus Logo on Trolls (that put the rack back a bit), so this is an issue that is workable.

oddly enough, my reason for being interested in the Troll vs a LHT is looking for a frame that is more nimbe, less sluggish, and although I havent ridden either, I've read enough reports that the LHT is sluggish unloaded.

I look forward to looking at suggestions here. I may in the future start a new thread specifically asking about general 26in frame options out there, maybe to get more feedback, but will follow this to see what comes up.

cheers

Rob_E

Troll will take disc or caliper brakes. Troll will be easier to run with a gear hub or single speed. Troll will happily take a suspension fork if you ever want one. Troll is ready for a Rohloff hub if that was ever something you'd consider.

Piolet will be easier to set up with drops. I'm going to say that the Piolet is better looking, and hope my Troll never reads this.

I always run a hub gear, and after running one for years with vertical dropouts, I decided that I would not by another bike with vertical dropouts unless I was sure I wanted to run traditional gearing.

To me, the Troll looks and feels more like a mountain bike that is also ready for some distance riding. I feel like it will happily go wherever a mountain bike will go, but can also be easily set up for riding on smoother surfaces. I have no experience with the Piolet, but when I look at it, I feel like it wants to ride like a regular touring bike, but with nice, fat tires so you can tackle rougher terrain. Not that I know what I'm talking about. But that's how it feels to me: The Troll rides like a mountain but is made to happily go on long hauls. The Piolet looks like you want to keep your road tour going even while you head down a forest path. That's my impression, but really the geometries are not miles apart.

I feel like over all the Troll is a more versatile frame, but if the features it offers aren't of interest, then that really doesn't factor in. Especially if the most important feature is fitting drop bars. Which is not to say you can't put drop bars on a Troll. https://www.google.com/search?q=surl...sAQIGw&dpr=0.9

I don't think there's a wrong choice. I think it comes down to how you plan to ride it and how you want to set it up. I chose the Troll, and I'm really happy with it. The Piolet looks very nice, but it doesn't tick the boxes I needed ticked, so it doesn't really tempt me. But I can see where it could easily be someone else's bike of choice.

I will say that I switched from a Long Haul Trucker to my Troll. They are larger sizes, so the handling comparisons might not be applicable. I actually like the handling of the Trucker. It's steady and solid. It's also sluggish and likes to go in a straight line. But I am also sluggish and like straight lines, so we got along fine. Troll is definitely more nimble. Feels a lot more lively. One thing I was worried about when switching bikes is that I would not like the handling as much, but I ended up liking it more.

djb

as a comparison, my Tricross has a toptube of 54.5cm , on a medium or 54cm frame. Although on paper I should use a larger frame at 5'10", this toptube length (and whatever effective tt length it has) and the stock stem (probably a 90mm) works great for me with the dropbars that are on it (diff bars have diff "reach", distance from tops to hoods)

a medium Troll has a tt of 570mm, a whole 15cm longer than my Tricross,
a small Troll has a tt of 549mm, very similar to my Tricross--BUT, I dont know how I would be on a small frame at 5'10" , it might be circus clown material here......

in my case, a med troll might work with a really short stem, but here we get into the unknown without actually putting one together and seeing--which is the worry when you get into buying only a frame and going the build up route. The same pretty much goes for the "small" option.

hopefully you can measure your road bike and compared numbers to the xs Troll and hopefully things match up closer for you.

Llama--neat Rawland bikes, but 3k Amercan, thats $4200 Can. ouch. (and not with the crankset I would want)

One thing with the Troll that is a known quantity is that it is a tough frame that handles a load really well. Like you, I'm never going to go nuts with overloading also because Im a skinny guy who learned a long time ago that keeping it to not much over 45lbs or so is pretty much where it starts to get not fun for me.

the horizontal dropouts on the Troll are something to consider re fenders, and specifically having lots of clearance to remove your rear wheel for a flat (as you have to pull it out far back) but I seem to recall folks on this forum in the past with Trolls saying thats its doable.

like you, a disc ready frame is what I would want also for this sort of bike, despite only having had canti and v-brake bikes, specifically thinking of riding a lot more on possible muddy gunky roads.

This VO Piolet frame is neat, but in my size, its 700c wheels....

a friend of mine in Vancouver bought a troll last year, stock, and one thing to consider is its weight. Perhaps look into if you can find reliable info about frame and fork weights compared to other frames. Given that you aren't going to overload a bike, perhaps there are lighter combos out there--although this gets back to my interest in this whole thing--what are there in 26inchers ??

cheers,

djb

thanks for the comments about comparing the handling. For me this is very much a plus for the Troll. I personally really like a more flickable and lively bike--yes, I know when we throw a bunch of bags with junk in them on a bike its never going to be nimble, but I really like to hear opinions from someone who has ridden both, and clearly shows the differences in their handling.
My late 90s rockhopper comp is nimble and quick handling. I've commuted on it for ages, and like how its fast steering gets me around potholes and errant cars in a major city. I've also toured on it with the riser bars, and although I've only toured on it with rear panniers and a handlebar bag, I like how it keeps some of that nimbleness even with 25lbs on it.
Not to mention, I figure in the life of an "expedition" bike, it will still be used a good amount with no load or a light one, ie daily use, so I appreciate a bike to be fun and not "sluggish and likes to go in a straight line".

again, thanks for the direct comparison.

Rob_E

That is how I figured my Troll sizing, and it worked out well. Since I was not running drops on the Trucker, I just took the effective top tube length, plus my longish stem, and looked at where that put me in the Troll frames, assuming I would want to run a shorter stem. So far fit seems very good, although I suspect a size up might have worked, too. Nice thing is that with a wide variety of stems, you can make a lot of things work as long as you don't go too big in your frame choice.

I haven't had to remove my fenders yet to change a tire, but I also left the fender clearance high. I recently tried to tighten that up a little, so we'll see. But, for me, this would never be a consideration. I'd much rather have horizontal dropouts and have to loosen the fenders to change a flat. Maybe if changing a flat was a more common occurrence, I'd have a different opinion.

djb

specifically for moniemoe, this is a real concern. My wife is 5'1" also, and for her first ever drop bar bike I researched for her a few years ago, I very much kept this in mind. Over the years, I've had women friends who have bikes that were clearly too big for them, even with me doing stem changes, and not being regular bikers, didnt know better but unfortunately ended up not riding much because of the discomfort.

Of course reach and proper fit is important for anyone, but from my experience, shorter women with possibly shorter torsos pecentage wise, can end up on frames with just a bit too much reach, which we all know makes a real difference in riding comfort.
Diff frames too will have the bars at diff heights in relation to the seat, and moniemoe specifically said she likes a more upright position, so the headtube placement is pretty important here, not to mention overall "reach" of seat to bars distance, which can limit the stems and the angle of stems--ie, too long a toptube may restrict an angled stem to allow bars to be at a comfortable height. I realize that the Trolls uncut fork tube is a big plus here, allowing more flexibility in bar height. The other bike probably has this also, but its a factor to consider to be sure of this, along with general top tube length and all that.
I suspect as the Troll is designed more as a flat bar bike, the headtube height thing is always going to be ok, so the toptube length seems to me to be the distance to be aware of, and compare to her drop bar bike which works well for her.

re bar height, my Tricross has a slight bar drop from seat, a couple of cm probably, and this works great for me for multi day riding on pavement. Considering an "expedition" bike with riding probably a lot more on rough roads, I figure slightly higher bar position would be better--and so an uncut and generally higher headtube will allow for playing with various stacks of spacers to find the good height one likes.

re removing fenders, I usually ride about 5000km per year, and get a flat or two per year between my two bikes, but I figure extra fender space is worth it in case one hits an area with all kinds of thorns or something that you usually never encounter. Again, just thinking of all sorts of scenarios you might run into in diff areas than usual.

Tourist in MSN

I am 6 foot, yet I prefer 26 inch because my 26 inch bikes have no toe overlap, my 700c bikes with fenders do. I used a 700c LHT for my last tour, every day the toe overlap bothered me at really low speeds. And on the Pacific Coast of Oregon and California, there were a lot of 8 percent grade hills with low speeds while climbing. So, even us tall guys can like the smaller wheel size. All my future touring will be on 26 inch bikes.

moniemoe73

I had the 26".

GeoKrpan

I chose the Piolet.

djb

holy kadoodles thats a lot of drop! You obviously are comfortable on it, but oi vey....

moniemoe73

Ooooh that is hot.

How do you like it?

djb

re that mono-stay setup, I know I don't have the frame knowledge, but does anyone know if there is any downside to this setup of the seatstays?
I imagine this design helps with getting really wide tires on it, which along with the Troll, can certainly open up pure off road possibilities if you want to go that route.

what about horizontal vs vertical dropouts? I have bikes with both and really never had thought about them, especially not in terms of what was better, they were just "there" and worked when I took a wheel off and put it back on.

re aesthetics, I think both frames are neat looking, especially the small details on both as well as the diff shapes and curves of each.

Losligato

My wife is 5'. We just got her the smallest Troll. She loves it. I put the Surly Nice Rack on and she has not had any heel clip issues with Ortlieb Backrollers.

The great thing about the bike is its versatility. If the disc brakes fail in the middle of nowhere it can be easily fitted with the ubiquitous cantilever brakes. You can have four different bikes by changing tires/wheels from Fatbike to road bike (it will run 700c) to mountain bike to expedition touring bike.

There are more braze-on on the frame and fork than perhaps any other bike made(?) We shamelessly carry a lot of stuff when we tour. Our one major problem on the Asia tour was the rack-mount braze-on broke on my old Specialized Rock Hopper Comp. The rear dropouts on the Surly Troll give me confidence that this will not be a problem on our next tour.





That said, the Velo Orange bike looks pretty incredible too. Seems you can't go wrong with either.

mdilthey

Lots of weird advice in this thread. The LHT and the Troll are not remotely the same bike.... One is a mountain bike and the other isn't, even if both are good for touring.

For an adventure bike, go with the Troll. The surly frames are not that overbuilt, comparatively, and not too heavy. The disc brakes will be a nice thing when the weather is bad, even if they get a little loud. And ultimately, the frame offers a ton of flexibility, like singlespeed, rolhoff, etc. options.

I like the Piolet, but the dropouts are a little fancy for my taste (worried about durability) and the price is higher than the Troll without seeing a clear reason why.

GeoKrpan

Yes, I'm comfortable. I tried a bunch of handlebar heights and stems and this is the best for me.

GeoKrpan

Thanks. It's a dream to ride. The ride is firm, sporty, rather than plush. Would soften up with touring gear on it.

LeeG

It sure would be nice to find an old 38cm Bridgestone MB-3 and convert it to drop bars.

GeoKrpan

There's no downside as far as I can tell and it certainly adds to the visual appeal. There are pics on the Internet of Piolets with 29x3 Plus sized tires. Single chainring only if you run 29x3 tires.