carpy spokes
 

have been building wheels with pillar psr14 spokes
for a while, mostly good results. latest batch, not
so good. couple hundred km easy road riding, broke
a spoke at the threads. what? spokes don't break
at the threads, right? always snap at the elbow.

figured poor chinese quality control (were these taiwan
spokes made in mainland factory?), replaced spoke.
another spoke broke off in the nipple today. sheesh,
you'd think i done bought a trek!

guess i gotta cut 'em all out (maybe could use on a
front wheel?) and rebuild. won't go with same type
pillar, no telling which sellers have the crap spokes.

what do you advise? this is what i have access to
for 36-spoke, 3x, 26", moderate load touring:

dt competition 2.0/1.8/2.0 ($0.50)
sapim strong 2.3/2.0 ($0.55)
sapim force 2.2/1.8/2.0 ($0.85)
pillar tribble butted 2.3/1.8/2.0 ($0.70)

nipples extra...

I've never had a problem with DT Competition spokes being a problem, especially with 3X, 36 spokes, on a 26" wheel. Should be pretty much bombproof if built on a decent rim, constructed properly and you weigh less than an elephant.

Spokes breaking at threads is almost exclusively caused by nipple misalignment. It'll be more common with plain gauge spokes where the root of the thread is the weakest place, at about 80% the strength of the 2mm section.

It's also possible that the spokes were threaded at the low end of the diameter tolerance. That could cost almost another 10% in strength.

Even with these issues I wouldn't expect failures early on, since it's still a slow fatigue process. However, one thing that might cause rapid failure at threads is excess tension. That can bring a spoke close enough to tensile yield that the fatigue process is sped up considerably, or spokes are simply overloaded by side load impacts.

So, before you blame your spokes, take a look at the tensions and see where you stand.

I have been really happy with Wheelsmith DB-14 spokes. On my last set of wheels, I used Sapim nipples. If it broke at the top of the nipple, the Sapim nipples may be better because they can result in slightly less bending of the spoke at that point.

I have wheels with Sapim, a newer Belgian company and DT made in CH that have been fine for decades ..




Maybe the wire still had contaminants or the threading Die was worn , and rolling the wire made a defective thread.

Unless you also will replace the rim de tension the spokes a bit at a time . rather than cut spokes ,

so the rim wont warp.


I've been fine with straight gage spokes , again , 20 & 30 year old wheels..

my 15 ga 36 spoke road bike wheels are 40 years old.

Is your problem with the spokes the color, smell or the scales? Or just that they aren't good eating.

Ah Thats It ! They were made out of Fish, rather than Metal, that is the problem..

Something sounds a bit fishy here.

Did the OP build his own wheels?

Next time a spoke is removed, check for right facing vs left facing spoke holes. I have troubles recognising them, but hang a spoke (or stub) from a nipple and see which direction it naturally points when leaning the wheel right or left.

3x or greater with 32 or fewer holes?

I think small rims may also be harsher on spokes. I'm hoping to build up a few deep rims soon. I'll see how that goes. :eek:

Or at least smells fishy

Misaligned nipples bad enough to break spokes are obvious to the naked eye. Just look at the wheel and see if the nipple lies in line with the spoke. This is a bit harder to gauge as you're building, since slack spokes don't lie on the line they'll assume when tight.

BTW- aero rims, especially ones with a pointy bottom are most vulnerable to the issue because they are thick at the spoke hole and the nipples are very constrained by the sides of the holes, and cannot float to the spoke's line.

Might be why I never realized the issue until I started building Aeroheads.

Go to a knitting store and buy a knitting needle which is a snug fit in spoke holes. I've had one in my wheel building kit for decades and whenever I'm in doubt, I stick it into the rim and it tells me the spoke hole orientation. If I remember right, I bought it back when Mavic had an inspiration and started angling spokes forward and back in addition to right and left. (This brilliant idea didn't last long, thank god)

I had three spokes break at the nipple on the same trip. It was right after I had the wheel trued. I believe the the spokes were twisted during the truing process.

Carp usually don't have nipples, maybe they are genetically modified carp.

It's all those estrogen like chemicals dumped into our waterways.

Some fish and sharks, however, do give live birth. It isn't just mammals.

I think we should stop wasting time on these tangents, and get back to the intent of this thread.

So, no more kidding around, and lets stay on point ------ Carpy Diem.

I'll bet this ace mechanic knows something about your carpy spoke problem.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/m...eb5b8c612d.jpg

That's not a carp, it looks like a catfish.

i remember my latin american............carpe diem! = eat more fish!


have made a dozen or so of the same wheels...this one seemed
to build up easier than the rest.

novatec hub (4 bearing rear, 2 bearing front, 58mm flange)
pillar 14 straight guage spokes
alex dh19 rim

yes, got the spokes in the correct offset rim holes.
no misalignment, no sharp angles apparent.
yes, remembered to de-tension the spokes.
easy build, none of the nipples had to really crank
down on. rim was nice and straight to start with.
no extreme tensions on any spokes.
sadly, no tension-o-meter, have to judge
by sound/feel.

note....first break was DS, second break NDS.


could it be counterfeit spokes breaking? maybe.
built a 20" wheel for a friend, went with 20" alex dh19
since they've treated me so well. couldn't find the ERD
online, so emailed alexrims. their response? they
don't make 20" rims (at least not that model).
a closer look at the label said it was a 559 rim!!!!

Are you being fishcetious? cause that's not a cat but what we in the midwest call a golden bonefish (common carp)

I measure my rims and hubs. Easier that way, but then one must get all the parts laying out before buying the spokes.

I've got a pair of Sun Doublewide rims labeled 507mm, but they seem to fit 26" tires. Hopefully they'll go into a cargo build.

I've been considering Pillar spokes for my next project. Now I'll have to re-think that. However, I think I'll try to order them factory direct if I can do that. Cut out the middle man, and hopefully it would remove counterfeit channels. Of course, they may have more than one factory.

DT has been good for me in the past.

i suppose i could try to measure, but seems a bit complicated trying to
measure correctly to the inside behind the wall of a double wall rim.
safer to find mfg specs online, or contact directly.
i made a misteak once, don't want to do that again!

nothing wrong with pillar spokes for you buying real spokes from real
sellers from real distributors from the real factory.

nothing is sacred here!


http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=513774
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=513775
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=513776

Sapim is good stuff. I have two sets of wheels with their spokes and will probably have a third soon. The touring bike with strong and the fixed gear with force.

Technically the spoke should be sized to more or less penetrate past the rim, nipple washer (if any), and through the head of the nipple.

You can measure your own ERD by taking two spokes (and nipple washers if you want. Add nipples and tie them together with a rubber band across the rim. Measure nipple to nipple, then add the length of the two nipples.

I guess your'e right, the sunglasses confused me , I can make out his scales. I'm wondering if the OP wanted to write "crappie" instead of "carpy". Crappies have long sharp spines, but not as long as bicycles spokes, or at least not in NE.

oh, carp!

replaced spoke, re-tensioned (you know the drill) wheel.
rode about an hour on concrete farm tracks...ping.
same deal....broke off three turns into the thread.

looks like whomever made the spokes might have cut
and/or rolled the threads too deep. deep enough that
the threads look different. stick one of the (alleged)
counterfeit pillar spokes in a group of priorly purchased
pillar spokes, can spot the offending spoke every time
just by the look of the threads.

could still be operator head space error, but i'm going
with counterfeit spokes.

will rebuild with sapim strong. i like that 2.3 at the elbow.

This is why I use Wheelsmith. I think the problem could be they didn't have the right size and recut them. But that should be obvious at this point in your scrutiny, and probably only an issue with straights.

If you think they were twisted, support the hub on the floor, grab the naked rim like a steering wheel and press with all your weight, you will hear the spokes reset. I do that when building wheels it is a form of stress release. I do multiple versions of stress release, though the main one is always squeezing pairs.

this is fun. now on third set of spokes.

first set was mis-ordered. the seller said he had all sizes, but he meant he could make
all sizes. the misorder? the website is in chinese. and silly me at the time didn't
know there was this thing called straight pull spokes, so when the chinese said straight
spokes.....well, i did get straight guage spokes, but they were also straight pull.
it was in chinese, dammit! and check the picture on the webpage!

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=517962

so now i've got 40 266mm-long stainless steel BBQ skewers!

the second seller had only odd lengths, no 266mm, so went with 255 and 257.
the wheelbuilder program called for 255.5 and 257.0

i was mistaken on the DS breakage, as i'd used one of the 255's after replacing
four of the 257's. DS no problem. All broke at the threads. looks like a factory
problem (assuming not counterfeit....a HUGE assumption here!!), as no sign of
rerolling.

can they still be used? maybe on a front wheel? novatec front hubs
with same rim will take the same spokes. already have BBQ skewers.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=517963

could not get sapim strong or dt competion in 255, 256, 257, so went with
pillar tribble butted. 2.2/2.0/1.8/2.0 with 14mm nipples.

got the new batch, seller said he had all sizes, so ordered 256mm. i think he
meant he "could" have all sizes. spokes were obviously re-rolled! different
colored thread sections, white ends not all cut cleanly.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=517971

i calculated that 5mm new thread means the spokes were orginally 261mm.

OH CARP! but mr. googles tells me it's common practice for lbs's to cut and
re-roll spokes. seemed ok-ish, i guess. all the theads were continuous, no
problem threading the nipples on. maybe, just maybe.....

went ahead and built the wheel (is good practice), stress-relieving the CARP
out of it. DS spokes come to the screwdriver slot, NDS spokes about
1mm higher. all the threads, including 4mm original factory thread,
is inside the nipple contacting the nipple threads.

seems ok after 100km of pavement.........

May I recommend getting spokes from Switzerland (DT) or Belgium (sapim) [As marked on the box of 50?]

I know your locale excels in low price leadership attractive to companies around the world
to boost profits , by having things made there.. anyhow, Best of Luck ..

More spokes the Merrier in Loaded touring wheels IMO.

One of the wheels I've had or have, it's been a year or so ago that it happened. I ended up breaking a couple of spokes at the nipple. I wouldn't say it can't happen, its just rare that it does. In my case it wasn't a home built wheel.