Yeah, but do you sponsor a chess club at your LBS? :rolleyes:

A couple of years ago I bought a 2010 Cannondale T2 touring bike for less than a third of the new cost. The guy got it to commute to work with, "rode" it for three months, and put in in storage for 4 years. It was just like new.

Last year I picked up a 2014 42 cm LHT for my daughter at $500. The woman who sold it planned on doing a big tour, but it never materialized. The bike was also in like new condition.

Building a frame up wasn't more expensive because the individual components were over-valued. it was expensive because the stock components on complete builds were grossly undervalued, and that was fine since bike shops selling more complete bikes in simple transactions would generate service revenue down the line (and, with people enjoying a bike, they might upgrade components at their true cost anyways! Like we do!)

If you drop the price of components to their basic distribution and manufacturing costs, only Shimano can make a very narrow profit. The LBS, which needs a 30-540% higher sell price to cover things like labor, rent, electricity, coffee... Well, they can't compete because they would have to take a loss on all Shimano parts. So, their customers simply stop shopping there.

I am not anti-capitalist and there's nothing wrong with online shopping, but Shimano has the power to define the market. If they operate the way they operate, it's (in my opinion) short-sighted because they will be the only ones to profit. The local bike shops (corrupt and uncorrupt, friendly and unfriendly alike) are at risk of becoming sparse, and with no accessible repair and service, how many will continue to ride?


If Shimano checks online resellers at a certain market price, they can keep everyone on the same playing field, and everyone wins. Customers, sellers, shops, Shimano, everyone. It worked great that way for about 10 years.

I can imagine, I do all my own computer building, that pride in what you put together is definitely there too. All my bikes are old C&Vs that I "rescued", and the ripping them apart and rehabbing them and building them back up is as enjoyable to me as actually riding them. Even the few bits I am putting on my touring bike I'm rebuilding right now have been quite fun to shop around and piece together.

Good analysis. I just bought a World Troller frame, and will move all parts over from my existing Troll, and rebuild the Troll with a new 1x11 Shimano XT M8000 groupset. Already have extra wheels, so I'm getting a decent bike for less than $450, that will have fairly new wheels and brand new components. I assume your last sentence was added for humor, but if not, please elaborate. From a consumer's point of view, low cost, high quality parts are awesome.

Scroll up two or three posts for my opinions!

I see how it could hurt the small independent LBSs, but I do my own wrenching, so what difference would it make? The last two bikes I bought were from a shop in California and a shop in Pennsylvania. The last wheelset I bought was from a shop in Milwaukee. I purchased based on price, knowing pretty much what I wanted. How does paying more for the same thing benefit me as a consumer?

You've just perfectly highlighted the problem. Short-term, your way is ideal.

Long-term, the loss of a LBS will mean less people will own and use bikes, which will reduce the amount of people riding in your area. This will slowly eliminate cycling clubs, and it will be much harder to get bike lanes maintained in your town (or create them, if they aren't already there). The used parts market will dry up, and good advice for complex problems will be harder and harder to find as mechanics switch careers. Drivers will stop paying as much attention to cyclists as they are less and less present on the road, making it a lot less safe to ride around.

Is it likely that the entire cycling world will collapse? Of course not. Is there a possibility that you will feel the ripple effects of Shimano's decision? Absolutely. And I think that's a shame when there's an alternative close at hand.

Just because you CAN have something at a certain cost, doesn't mean it's smart or sustainable to do so.

I am not familiar with the economics of independent bicycle shops. I don't know what proportion of their business is made of sales of complete bikes, components and service. I'd be surprised if the industry were decimated by aggressive component pricing. There will always be, I assume, the local road racing team and other niches. I also find that in our city, one can find a couple of bike coops and large sporting goods stores providing repair and tune up services.

At the other end of the spectrum, Surly prohibits online sales of their bikes/frames, arguably to support their network of retailers. Not sure this is in their best interest. Almost convinced this is not in my best interest.

Call me selfish, but it is not important to me whether a particular LBS adapts and survives or closes their doors forever. And promoting the expansion of cycling or not is not my mission in life. I just want to get out there and ride. The smart LBSs have large online sales departments and compete with other online-only sellers. The idea of supporting your local economy has pretty much gone out the window. The reason is, that people don't want to pay the middleman a large fee for selling them something. The groupset I just purchased was from a LBS in Oregon and will arrive by UPS tomorrow (free shipping). If I could even find it locally, calling and driving around to several stores, paying sales tax and full retail, I would be out probably $300 extra. No thanks.

Granted I've only ever owned (as an adult) three bikes and the last time I bought one was ~6 years ago ($550). Now that I'm actually looking around for a new one, it seems to me the ones that I have seen in my price range suite me fine as they are. Lucky me. :)

I tend to agree. I'm not sure a LBS making a bit on a high end component set every few weeks comes close to their profit off $100 labor on tune ups that they perform many of each day. I'd be willing to bet that most general LBS make far more off Electra add-ons than selling components to someone building their own bike, or off the labor to put said components on that touring bike.

Removed

Completely agree on all of this except the cost to build from scratch. I agree with the goal of the companies to produce a bike for 9 or 10 people, the skimping on some components, etc etc etc.

The cost of 30-40% more I disagree with though.

Sure, if I were to try and build an LHT frame to the exact specs of a prebuilt LHT, my costs will me higher. But the whole point of going with a frame is to choose what goes on the frame and people will presumably not build it with identical components to whats on a prebuilt LHT as that wouldnt make sense.
So perhaps the build price will be higher, but the components would be exactly what the person wants and often times the components will be 'better'(of higher quality) than what could come stock. To compare apples to apples, you would have to consider a frame build up to the alternative of buying the bike completed, buying components you want to swap out, selling stock components you dont want, and figuring up the total spent.

Also, just tossing it out that component(and groups) are disgustingly cheap right now overseas that once you get a Deore transmission, barend shifters and drop levers, plus some handbuilt wheels with Deore hubs you will have spent about $500.

LTH frameset is $470
Transmission(crank, cassette, FD, RD, chain)- $130
10sp bar end shifters $70
Tektro brake levers $25
Salsa drop bar $50
Tektro miniVs $30
Headset $40
Stem $30
Tubes $10
Spacers $20
Tape $10
Seatpost $25
Housing and cables $15
Wheelset $150-300
Tires for $70



So thats $1145 to $1295 total depending on the wheelset and it has as good as or better components than a stock LHT.

disclaimer- did I forget something? I dont think so. If i did, apologies. I left the saddle off on purpose since its swapped out on most all bikes.


Cheaper than a built LHT and thats without hunting around for deals or buying anything used. $70 will get you some great tires. $225 will get some really solid built 36h wheels.


Now you could go much nicer than what I listed, but what I listed is(in my view) nicer than a stock LHT and cheaper. So adding in higher quality components(TRP levers instead of stock Tektro, Paul Shorties instead of Tektro miniVs, etc) could be done and you may only start to come to the price of a new LHT BEFORE swapping stuff out.



...got carried away there! Ive been avoiding starting a project at work...dang.

Looks like it is going to be a bike for climbers (I don't see a saddle in your list of components) :)

But it gives a good idea.

Correct, I mentioned I left a saddle off because of the wide range in costs and because a saddle on a stock LHT will also typically be swapped out. I was trying to keep the comparison accurate. I have $30 saddles and a $170 saddle(valued new, i bought it used). The range is just so wide for what is 'good' with a saddle since everyone is different that its futile to price in a general build. You could add $10 to my estimate though because thats how much Cannondale Quick saddles cost at a local bike shop which are brand new takeoffs from purchased bikes where the customer swapped in a better saddle. Those $10 are the equivalent of what comes on a stock LHT.

I'd be curious to know if there is a frame similar to that of the LHT that can be purchased bare. The LHT has a cult following that cannot be inspired by its components. As I doubt that frame geometry is patentable, there are probably, or should be, interesting clones or variants.

Anyone familiar with options?

And if I may add -- when I learned about touring bikes, I have considered a belt-drive/Rohloff hub for a little while, until I came to the conclusion that it was a setup aimed at the 1% :) Still I am a bit surprised that Surly doesn't offer a belt-drive suitable touring frame. Are there options?

Very well stated. No the cycling world wont collapse, but there is a benefit to the community in a strong local cycling presence.
As for Shimano's insane prices, I dont like it much and the local shop I frequent doesnt exactly love it either, but they also fully recognize it exists and they told me to buy online if I were to upgrade some STIs. 105 11sp STIs are $90 less overseas than thru them.
Here is the difference though- the price locally should be the same as overseas, taking exchange rate into account. Its not that Wiggle and Ribble et all should increase their prices, its that US retailers(and distributors) should be buying components at the same prices. This would allow domestic distribution to better compete with overseas retailers on price. And since products would arrive sooner domestically(except thru Niagara who is the slowest shipper of all time), more US consumers would buy domestically since the price barrier had been removed.

The key would be lowering the domestic price floor and not raising the overseas price floor. This would of course mean lower profit margins for Shimano. That would in turn perhaps negatively affect their R&D, so 12 speed groupsets may not come as soon as hoped!...but thats actually a benefit in my eyes as a cycling quasi-luddite. Lower profits would only delay them getting a decent website, so we would all have to continue to suffer with their horrific excuse for a site. Hmm...benetifts and negatives of them dropping their profits...



Anyways- well stated arguments by you. Ideals should not be surrendered for convenience.

The LHT can be purchased bare, just as a frameset only.
Soma Saga is another option.
Nashbar sells(for dirt cheap) a frame intended for touring on.
The other option is an 80s touring bike and/or frame. Strip it down of components and start building. I have a powdercoated Fuji Saratoga frameset I bought off this site last fall for $180 total. A neglected touring bike with a frame in solid shape can be had for $200. Rip the components off, powdercoat it, and you have a brand new looking frameset in the color of your choice for under $400.

They probably did, a few years back, before the USD gained on other currencies (arguably because of the fracking industry). There has been a 50% increase in the value of the USD between 2012 and 2015... Takes a while for global organizations to act upon those changes, because they may be temporary and (largely) because the average customer doesn't shop overseas.

Above and beyond FOREX, it also looks like the European bike market is much much more competitive.

Tis half the route I took, the old drivetrain and wheelset is going back on for now. Found a Miyata 610 that I wound up taking home for $85. Was originally going to powder coat it until I ran low on time with the expected turnaround, so if I end up really like it it'll go over next winter. $85 into the entire bike, $80 into panniers and racks, $40 into new brake levers (wanted the second set for upright riding), $30 into consumables, $35 into new tubes and tires, and a lot of elbow grease, and I should have something decent for my couple trips this summer. Even if I decide to have it coated later, I'll have less into it than a new hybrid.

I have no problem if you want to pay the wages, rent, coffee and other expenses of your favorite LBS. Perhaps you perceive or actually receive some benefit in doing so. The brick and mortar places where I shop would be considered big box stores by most (Performance/REI), but only for small stuff, clothing and consumables. The small, independent bike shops are way overpriced. There is a store in Maryland (Fresh Bikes, for those of you who are local Freshbikes Cycling | Northern Virginia & Maryland 703.248.9600 Specialized Cervelo Cannondale Pinarello Santa Cruz Assos) that charges full retail for everything, and has many $5k+ bikes for sale. Guess how much I buy there? Nothing. I happened to be walking by one day and stopped in, but it is the last place I would go to actually buy anything. However, there must be plenty of customers who keep them in business.

My LBS, Laughing Dog Bicycles, has cultivated a massive local market for weird 3-speeds, Raleigh drop-bar monstercross conversions, smart-looking Univegas with porteur racks and moustache bars, and Brooks saddles. They sell high-end MTB's, but in a more personal way with people who are treated as friends of the shop and ready to upgrade. The "average" sales come from the very intelligent Trek lineup and go from $400-1000. There's a non-zero chance that 50% of products sold are bike locks for college students.

I like my local shop. Not big box, not boutique, just a bike shop that sells products the mechanics personally endorse, and they're not afraid to dig in the back for Mafac brakes and old XT cranksets once in a while. Younger riders always get advice and some minor labor for free. No shady dealings and no threat of going under (right now) because of the local scene that enjoys stopping by for the conversation as much as the service. Parker, the owner, knows literally everyone in town.

I mean, it's different all over. I've been to other great shops, like Berkshire Outfitters in Adams that makes a good % of their income off of outdoors gear and cross-country skis and makes the bills that way, and I've been to not-so-great shops that cater to the most affluent 5% and nobody else and they survive because they can charge full retail. Some shops can't or won't find a path and they'll die, but it would suck if the #1 component manufacturer accelerated that process intentionally.

At least there's co-ops!

If the idea is that LBS foster a bike culture, though, I'd strongly argue that the big box shops like REI and Performance do as much to do that, if not more. Both offer numerous free biking clinics, and clinics aimed specifically at women. Performance offer organized group rides geared towards beginners, and if I am new to the biking world, the confidence factor of joining an easy ride from a big box shop versus that little shop down the road where you are an outsider cannot be understated. No, you probably won't get REI to dig around in the back for hardware for the Weinmann brake cable clamp bolt you just broke, and Performance pretty much knows to tell me NO before I even ask if they carry some old part, but the truth is the overwhelming majority of people biking are never going to require service like that.

I don't disagree if you've found a great local shop, you should do everything to support it. I've got many other hobbies (shooting, homebrewing, fishing, etc.) that have local shops, though, and my experience is the same across all of them: for every great local shop, there are a dozen that are nothing but mediocre at best, and a couple where customer service is non-existent because thy know they have a monopoly on the local market. They really offer me no reason nor desire to support them other than they are local.

Our shop might have a ukulele night and possibly show some movies every so often.