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Tires matter

Old 04-21-16, 10:45 AM
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Tires matter

Just wanted to share this link to a website that compares various brands of tires on their rolling resistance measured in watts, and puncture resistance measured on an arbitrary scale.

While compiling data on component failures I've been struck by the very high variance in tires durability.

The site mentioned above provides useful information on which one can decide which tire is best for the task at hand.
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Old 04-21-16, 12:51 PM
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Ive read elsewhere that the basic Vittoria Randonneur II tires on my sporttouring bike have very high rolling resistance. Its either the site you linked or another which measured the resistance. Its interesting since I dont think I have ever felt they rolled slow. Quite the opposite, actually. I enjoy the feel of the tires.


I enjoy them so much that I bought a set of Randonneur Pro folding tires for a bike I am building right now.


Different strokes and all, I guess. Ive ridden some painfully slow tires and wouldnt consider the Randonneurs to be close to any of them.
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Old 04-21-16, 12:56 PM
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Neat website, trying to find out if one tire model is tested or multiple tires of the same model tested to get a sense of consistency in a particular model and brand.
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Old 04-21-16, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Vittoria Randonneur II
Not familiar with them. But a quick search suggests that there are many variants of the Randonneur. Not clear at all that the data refers to the model II.
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Old 04-21-16, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by gauvins
Not familiar with them. But a quick search suggests that there are many variants of the Randonneur. Not clear at all that the data refers to the model II.
The Randonneur II is the same as what the site calls the Randonneur. Some time back Vittoria named it 'II' but it doesnt say that on the side of the tire.
Gotta love tire companies and their confusing product lines.
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Old 04-21-16, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
The Randonneur II is the same as what the site calls the Randonneur. Some time back Vittoria named it 'II' but it doesnt say that on the side of the tire.
Gotta love tire companies and their confusing product lines.
Vittoria being among the worst at doing this!
I have run most of their iterations of the Randonneur, and agree that they dont feel all that slow. If my fat but can push 90 + mile days on them, they cant be that bad. And having only two flats in six years with them is a plus.
I do find that I only get 500 miles or so out of the rear, but then thats actually pretty decent compared to every other tire Ive tried other than Armadillos, which were slow(and sucked in the rain). But thats around home on flint roads and unmaintained chip seal. On tour I get about 1,500 miles out of a rear, at 75 to 80 psi.

So going by the chart on the linked website, I could start flying down the road on Hypers. Might give them a try, as soon as I burn through the four Randonneur's I bought on sale last year.
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Old 04-21-16, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by shipwreck
Vittoria being among the worst at doing this!
Agreed on Vittoria, but I was actually thinking of Panaracer when I made the comment. Oh lord- that site is useless.

On Panaracer-
Do you want PT or TG flat technology? One is newer than the other, but they still list both. Is one better or just renamed?
Or do you want ProTite technology which is 25% better than their PT technology?...so PT is 25% better than PT...thats kinda confusing.
Whats really great is that the some tires, like the higher level Pasela has the tab title of 'Pasela TG' on the browser. But the tire is called Pasela PT. And one of the listed benefits is TourGuard technology. So a tire is called PT and advertised as being 25% stronger than previous technology, but it has an advertised benefit of being TG?

WHAT?!?!

Then you have the tire compound technology. ZSG Active, ZSG Combo, ZSG Dual, ZSG Ultima, and more. I am active, i think thats good. But combo means more, so i want that. Dual also means more, so that could be good. Ultima sounds like the best, ooh i want that.
Which is actually 'best'?...who knows. All are advertised as great traction.
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Old 04-25-16, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Ive read elsewhere that the basic Vittoria Randonneur II tires on my sporttouring bike have very high rolling resistance. Its either the site you linked or another which measured the resistance. Its interesting since I dont think I have ever felt they rolled slow. Quite the opposite, actually. I enjoy the feel of the tires.


I enjoy them so much that I bought a set of Randonneur Pro folding tires for a bike I am building right now.


Different strokes and all, I guess. Ive ridden some painfully slow tires and wouldnt consider the Randonneurs to be close to any of them.
Then maybe you haven't used a fast tire. Those tires are the slowest tires ive ever used. I once had a budget bike, with very cheap tires from a brand called something like "China tire factory", and then changed them to Randonneur pro and I clearly felt how slower the bike got. They are probably good mile eaters, but very slow.

I later bought the voyager hyper instead, WOW what a difference. The hyper in 35mm is faster than 23 mm racing tires Ive used.
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Old 04-25-16, 05:29 AM
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Starting to be really glad about choosing marathon plusses. If a voyager/randonneur only lasts 1500 miles I'd go through a set on one short tour. And those are not cheap tires. Marathon plus should last for at least 10k miles
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Old 04-25-16, 05:39 AM
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I've talked to many who claim much higher miles than I get. I buy good car tires and only get half the life most do, because of the flint roads I live on.
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Old 04-25-16, 07:22 AM
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Marathon Supreme FTW. That's pretty much all I use nowadays, but just ordered a set of Schwalbe One tires in 28.
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Old 04-25-16, 09:40 AM
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Tires? I bought 3 , 2 went on the wheels 1 is in reserve and brought along.. always ..
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Old 04-25-16, 10:10 AM
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Speaking in generalities, the stiffer and more puncture resistant the sidewall, the slower the tire as in increased rolling resistance (likely greater weight and rotational resistance as well)

I've been touring on the Vittoria Hyper for about 4 years now, the 32mm which actually measures 35 on my Mavic 719 rims. Before that I have made use of the Randonneur Pros and have been very happy with both. The Rand Pros may have offered a touch better flat resistance for me and the Hypers are lighter and more supple when not carrying a load. I have not had excessive wear issues with either. Are they likely to last as long as Marathons, no, but there are always trade offs.
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Old 04-25-16, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by robow
Speaking in generalities, the stiffer and more puncture resistant the sidewall, the slower the tire as in increased rolling resistance (likely greater weight and rotational resistance as well)
It would seem that in the case of marathons the reality is a bit different from the generalities. While the marathon and marathon plusses should definitely be slow with high rolling resistance, they aren't. The Plus is only 8 watts slower than the Hyper (which I'll admit is a very fast tire, I considered them, but decided that one shall serve as a spare tire on the upcoming tour) and the regular marathon is only 4-5 watts slower. On a touring bike that's likely as much difference as you'd get with putting teflon vs marine grease in your wheel bearings. Why the marathons aren't slow is a mystery to me, but it may have something to do with the softish latex puncture protection layer inside the tire.

The marathons are heavy, I'll grant you that, but it has also been proven time and time again that the whole rotational weight is the devil thing is a myth. A person cannot sense a difference of 1000 grams per wheelset if put in a blind test since the difference to acceleration is just so miniscule. What people may notice is a heavier bike, but that's a different matter entirely. Rotational resistance is something I don't recognize from conventional physics.
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Old 04-25-16, 11:16 AM
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Is there a description of the "puncture test" and "puncture factor"? What are they measuring exactly?
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Old 04-25-16, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Wressen
Then maybe you haven't used a fast tire. Those tires are the slowest tires ive ever used. I once had a budget bike, with very cheap tires from a brand called something like "China tire factory", and then changed them to Randonneur pro and I clearly felt how slower the bike got. They are probably good mile eaters, but very slow.

I later bought the voyager hyper instead, WOW what a difference. The hyper in 35mm is faster than 23 mm racing tires Ive used.
Panaracer Pasela, Schwalbe Marathon, Vittoria Randonneur II, Pasela PT(or TG?), Serfas Seca, Clement Xplor MSO, Clement Strada LGG

These are the tires ive had on my bikes over the last 2 years. I like the Clement Strada the most in terms of feel and resistance. But between the tires for my bikes that I load down- I just cant tell a big difference. The Marathon is hardest, the Pasela PT(TG) is most supple, and the Randonneur II is right between. But thats splitting hairs of the 3. This is based on paved(trails and roads) riding. I havent felt like I am working harder to make a bike move when riding on the Vittoria Randos.
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Old 04-25-16, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by alan s
Marathon Supreme FTW. That's pretty much all I use nowadays, but just ordered a set of Schwalbe One tires in 28.
I was keen on Marathon Supreme as my next set of tyres for my Surly LHT. Looking at the charts of the link, they don't seem to offer excellent puncture protection.

It was also mentioned to me by my LBS that one of the owners of the shop done the Land's End to John O'Groats ride in the UK (603 miles ... from one end of the UK to the other), and was not overly impressed with the Supreme as the sidewalls are ****e

Oh well .... back to the drawing board

I had a close look at the Compass tyres, but have not found much info on puncture resistance .... i.e. how they compare to other brands:

Tires | Product Categories | Compass Bicycles

I fancy the rat trap pass if they will fit in my 60mm wide fenders:

https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/co...rat-trap-pass/

Last edited by dim; 04-25-16 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 04-25-16, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jeff400650
Is there a description of the "puncture test" and "puncture factor"? What are they measuring exactly?
Sorta. If you click the "review" link for any of the tires there's a detailed report of how the tire scored. They don't give specifics on how the "puncture test" score is derived other to note that for "puncture test" a bigger number is better and "Puncture Factor = Puncture Resistance * Total Tire Thickness. Puncture Factor provides a more realistic puncture resistance score for touring tires"
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Old 04-25-16, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by dim
I was keen on Marathon Supreme as my next set of tyres for my Surly LHT. Looking at the charts of the link, they don't seem to offer excellent puncture protection.

It was also mentioned to me by my LBS that one of the owners of the shop done the Land's End to John O'Groats ride in the UK (603 miles ... from one end of the UK to the other), and was not overly impressed with the Supreme as the sidewalls are ****e

Oh well .... back to the drawing board

I had a close look at the Compass tyres, but have not found much info on puncture resistance .... i.e. how they compare to other brands:

Tires | Product Categories | Compass Bicycles

I fancy the rat trap pass if they will fit in my 60mm wide fenders:

https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/co...rat-trap-pass/
Like everything in life, there are tradeoffs. The MS provides decent flat protection and excellent rolling resistance. Sidewalls may be less than stellar, but I can only remember getting one sidewall puncture ever, so it is not something that I consider as important. Get whatever works for you, and if it stops working, try something else.
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Old 04-25-16, 01:49 PM
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This is another good article on the testing of bicycle tires rolling resistance with better explanation of the testing process and the "whys". Though it does concentrate on smaller road bike tires, the principles involved remain the same.

Where the rubber meets the road: What makes cycling tires fast? - VeloNews.com
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Old 04-25-16, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by alan s
Like everything in life, there are tradeoffs. The MS provides decent flat protection and excellent rolling resistance. Sidewalls may be less than stellar, but I can only remember getting one sidewall puncture ever, so it is not something that I consider as important. Get whatever works for you, and if it stops working, try something else.
it's always good to research and read what other's have actually experienced ... i.e. those who have owned and used a product .....

before splashing out cash and just trying things at random based on a few marketing adverts

and the way that I am customising my LHT, with fenders, panniers, dynamo hubs, usb charger, wiring etc etc, I'd hate to get a puncture.... some have said I should just fit the Schwalbe Marathon Plus which offers excellent (if not the best) puncture resistance.... a bit slower, but if I want to go faster, then I suppose that I will have to peddle faster.... puncture resistance tyres is paramount for this build... this is a touring bike, and not a road racing bike

I just fitted 2 Schwalbe Durano Plus tyres today on my commuter/road bike .... best puncture resistance tyres in 25C IMHO (this is my 2nd set, and I commute on bad roads and do high miles)

I'm planning on getting a good carbon (or if I'm lucky, a titanium) 'fast' bike for weekend rides and when I get that, I will look at fast tyres such as the new Michelin pro where I won't be worried about punctures, and will be more concerned about speed for Strava segments etc

Last edited by dim; 04-25-16 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 04-26-16, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by dim
I was keen on Marathon Supreme as my next set of tyres for my Surly LHT. Looking at the charts of the link, they don't seem to offer excellent puncture protection.

It was also mentioned to me by my LBS that one of the owners of the shop done the Land's End to John O'Groats ride in the UK (603 miles ... from one end of the UK to the other), and was not overly impressed with the Supreme as the sidewalls are ****e

Oh well .... back to the drawing board

I had a close look at the Compass tyres, but have not found much info on puncture resistance .... i.e. how they compare to other brands:

Tires | Product Categories | Compass Bicycles

I fancy the rat trap pass if they will fit in my 60mm wide fenders:

https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/co...rat-trap-pass/

While the Supremes don't have especially tough sidewalls they have a very puncture resistant tread. I commutted on 35mm tires for three years and never got a flat even riding through broken glass many times. The one pinch flat I got was going up a driveway with a sharp pothole at the bottom. I suppose if I had another 10 psi in the tire it might not have happened.

Pretty sure the Compass tires are all about a fast ride and not puncture resistance. What size tire are you looking for and what size of load?
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Old 04-26-16, 10:41 PM
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Physical characteristics of tires matter less than how inflated they are and how much weight (all of you, all your gear) they bear down the road.

Pump them up, lose some weight, carry less stuff, and your tour will be easier.

Worrying about whether your tires are fancy/expensive enough is like worrying whether your belt is tight enough to semi-disguise the fact that you're overweight. Honestly, tires are the last variable to worry about. Get wheels that take tires that you can buy at Walmart and your tours will be easier and more successful and less stressful.

Last edited by Takara; 04-26-16 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 04-27-16, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Takara
Physical characteristics of tires matter less than how inflated they are and how much weight (all of you, all your gear) they bear down the road.

Pump them up, lose some weight, carry less stuff, and your tour will be easier.

Worrying about whether your tires are fancy/expensive enough is like worrying whether your belt is tight enough to semi-disguise the fact that you're overweight. Honestly, tires are the last variable to worry about. Get wheels that take tires that you can buy at Walmart and your tours will be easier and more successful and less stressful.

I beg to differ.

I agree that proper pressure is critical. But when I reviewed maintenance logs I found systematic and very large differences in durability. As I see no reason why a world tourer would suddenly fail to properly pump a generic, I can only assume that better quality tires last up to 20 times as much as cheap ones.
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Old 05-01-16, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Takara
Physical characteristics of tires matter less than how inflated they are and how much weight (all of you, all your gear) they bear down the road.

Pump them up, lose some weight, carry less stuff, and your tour will be easier.

Worrying about whether your tires are fancy/expensive enough is like worrying whether your belt is tight enough to semi-disguise the fact that you're overweight. Honestly, tires are the last variable to worry about. Get wheels that take tires that you can buy at Walmart and your tours will be easier and more successful and less stressful.
If you have ever biked on both a ****ty no name tire and something like a marathon supreme, you will know that this is not true at all. The amount of problem free miles a marathon provides is easily worth the extra $10 or so.
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