Mechanical Disc Brakes on Touring Bike ... ?!
04-28-16, 08:34 PM
#76
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04-28-16, 09:32 PM
#77
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Jagwire for example makes a kevlar reinforced brake cable housing that uses the same technology as shifter housings. Instead of having a slightly compressive spiral steel wire on the housing reinforcement, it has wires that travel paraller with the brake cable. The kelvar keeps the housing from bursting as the force inflicted on the housing is pretty big. It makes for a crispier more accurate brake feel, and supposedly increases power. I mainly use them for looks reasons but brake performance is increased as well. Don't work with certain drop bar, brake lever and bar tape combos (a very tight wrap or very tight double wrap is a no no)
I bought compressionless brake housing since the drop-bar Disc Trucker has a long rear cable run, theoretically causing extra lever travel. But not reliable for me. & my old racing bikes with full-length rear brake housing braked quite positively (Campy Record).
I ordered new Jagwire compressionless housing + EZ-Bend segments before reading about the warnings against compressionless brake housing. AFAIK the EZ-Bend is simply to make taping easier & not so much that compressionless housing doesn't work on drop bars. At any rate the compressionless under tape didn't seem to cause any problems.
BTW I read many posts about hydraulic having considerable lever travel which makes them less attractive; I had assumed hydro would have ~zero wasted lever travel. BB7's with compressionless brake housing had minimal lever travel; so much so that I think that std helical housing would work OK & be more reliable too.
04-28-16, 10:36 PM
#78
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Anywhere you get a shop. No shop, no fix. Same with bicycles. But in the context of bicycle touring the next bike shop doing hydro brakes might be a lot farther away than your average auto shop which are usually everywhere.
Also to expand on that, there simply are no parts for hydro brakes, except for full calipers, full levers and full systems. Rebuild kits are exceedingly rare if they're even made and to think you'd find one from the first shop you limp to.... come on... it's difficult to get those when shopping online.
Hope makes a rebuild kit, but that's the only manufacturer I know of that does. Shimano definitely does not so if a part, seal, piston or anything function critical is damaged even slightly the whole caliper/lever needs to be swapped.
Also to expand on that, there simply are no parts for hydro brakes, except for full calipers, full levers and full systems. Rebuild kits are exceedingly rare if they're even made and to think you'd find one from the first shop you limp to.... come on... it's difficult to get those when shopping online.
Hope makes a rebuild kit, but that's the only manufacturer I know of that does. Shimano definitely does not so if a part, seal, piston or anything function critical is damaged even slightly the whole caliper/lever needs to be swapped.
04-29-16, 10:06 PM
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Shimano M615 sounds like a good price but checking around, apparently the company doesn't make any hydro brakes for non-brifter road levers. Working on the BB7's today: Cane Creek phone tech couldn't tell me if ferrule was advised for housing end in lever. Park Tool page about adjusting had an error in it. SRAM's video & manual also have an error. Going to try this tomorrow:Avid BB7 mini resource - How to set up the Avid BB7
04-30-16, 03:22 PM
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Shimano M615 sounds like a good price but checking around, apparently the company doesn't make any hydro brakes for non-brifter road levers. Working on the BB7's today: Cane Creek phone tech couldn't tell me if ferrule was advised for housing end in lever. Park Tool page about adjusting had an error in it. SRAM's video & manual also have an error. Going to try this tomorrow:Avid BB7 mini resource - How to set up the Avid BB7
There's is a dirt drop, Soma Gator, that works with MTB brakes or road brakes.
04-30-16, 11:31 PM
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Gator looks like an interesting design but if one uses MTB levers then there's only about one hand position with instant brake access, no? Spent a couple hours trying to perfect BB7s today & realized that true rotors are super-important to minimize excess lever travel, equally for hydraulic or cable brakes. Ideally one would be able to buy heavy but strong rotors that don't bend.
05-01-16, 03:06 AM
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05-01-16, 09:20 AM
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Gator looks like an interesting design but if one uses MTB levers then there's only about one hand position with instant brake access, no? Spent a couple hours trying to perfect BB7s today & realized that true rotors are super-important to minimize excess lever travel, equally for hydraulic or cable brakes. Ideally one would be able to buy heavy but strong rotors that don't bend.
The bar I use, upside down north road, is essentially the same as the Gator with the hands in the drops. The advantage is that the drop is more shallow and I can use a regular stem, not a goofy high rise one.
Yes, you have to set the pads very close to the rotors with BB7. Not so with hydraulic, much more tolerant to imperfect rotors. Tektro hydraulic levers have more lever travel than Shimano but it is far from being an issue. The price is so close that I would go with Shimano.
05-01-16, 09:58 AM
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This has all been fun and, well, I just gotta jump in. My Ramblings:
Disc brakes and my local LBSs:
Every practicing mechanic I've talked with tells me that hydraulic disc brakes are virtually trouble-free for a very long time, just like your car. Period.
The bike I ride every day was owned by a man who rode the holy crap out of it on a regular basis for seven years. He was and still is a podium finisher in downhill MTB races; he never paid any attention to the hydraulic brakes. They never leaked; nothing fell off, and, well --- they just worked. He did manage to get the discs hot enough to warp them beyond straightening and it took new pads (plus rotors) to get rid of the unnerving squeal. Had his brakes been V-brakes, there would have significant maintenance over those same years and he would have probably run into a tree or two as his brakes faded, and -- he wouldn't have been a podium finisher.
About 30 years ago I was asked to analyze a bicycle crash that left a very fine and very nice man in a wheelchair. Bottom line: his rim brake pads faded and he could not stop before being tossed into a very big rock which then broke his spine and put him in said wheelchair.
About 50 years ago, when I was a club racer here in Southern California, I took frequent training rides north toward Oxnard on PCH. There was a downhill (going North) out of Malibu that would fade my rim brakes; in an emergency, I could not stop. Brakes are better now but they used to be simply terrible.
The main reason that virtually all 'cages' and motorcycles have disc brakes is because they are better: They 'feel' better; they have higher heat capacity than any drum or rim brake ever did; they are almost maintenance-free. Had that man I just referred to been riding a bike with now-contemporary hydraulic disc brakes, he would have been able to walk around the rest of his unfortunately shortened life.
The only criticism and complaint I have about the current hydraulic bicycle disc brakes is their heat capacity. While it is unlikely that I'll (fat, out of shape 74-year old man) ever need more brake heat capacity than my 180mm front rotors provide, I think I'd prefer a larger, thicker front disc if I were coasting down the Tioga pass out of Yosemite with a loaded touring bike.
Yes, any brake system can be 'faded' but I prefer to think us cyclists, in our pursuit of lightness may be pushing things a bit. (But good for Shimano for making things better with their aluminum-cored rotors -- something I used on motorcycles more than 35-years ago)
Finally: We cyclists are tail-enders. The arguments you may read in BF about disc brakes were settled decades ago in the rest of the motoring world. LOL
Joe
Disc brakes and my local LBSs:
Every practicing mechanic I've talked with tells me that hydraulic disc brakes are virtually trouble-free for a very long time, just like your car. Period.
The bike I ride every day was owned by a man who rode the holy crap out of it on a regular basis for seven years. He was and still is a podium finisher in downhill MTB races; he never paid any attention to the hydraulic brakes. They never leaked; nothing fell off, and, well --- they just worked. He did manage to get the discs hot enough to warp them beyond straightening and it took new pads (plus rotors) to get rid of the unnerving squeal. Had his brakes been V-brakes, there would have significant maintenance over those same years and he would have probably run into a tree or two as his brakes faded, and -- he wouldn't have been a podium finisher.
About 30 years ago I was asked to analyze a bicycle crash that left a very fine and very nice man in a wheelchair. Bottom line: his rim brake pads faded and he could not stop before being tossed into a very big rock which then broke his spine and put him in said wheelchair.
About 50 years ago, when I was a club racer here in Southern California, I took frequent training rides north toward Oxnard on PCH. There was a downhill (going North) out of Malibu that would fade my rim brakes; in an emergency, I could not stop. Brakes are better now but they used to be simply terrible.
The main reason that virtually all 'cages' and motorcycles have disc brakes is because they are better: They 'feel' better; they have higher heat capacity than any drum or rim brake ever did; they are almost maintenance-free. Had that man I just referred to been riding a bike with now-contemporary hydraulic disc brakes, he would have been able to walk around the rest of his unfortunately shortened life.
The only criticism and complaint I have about the current hydraulic bicycle disc brakes is their heat capacity. While it is unlikely that I'll (fat, out of shape 74-year old man) ever need more brake heat capacity than my 180mm front rotors provide, I think I'd prefer a larger, thicker front disc if I were coasting down the Tioga pass out of Yosemite with a loaded touring bike.
Yes, any brake system can be 'faded' but I prefer to think us cyclists, in our pursuit of lightness may be pushing things a bit. (But good for Shimano for making things better with their aluminum-cored rotors -- something I used on motorcycles more than 35-years ago)
Finally: We cyclists are tail-enders. The arguments you may read in BF about disc brakes were settled decades ago in the rest of the motoring world. LOL
Joe
05-01-16, 11:14 AM
#86
George Krpan
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Shimano Ice-Tech rotors are supposed to dissipate heat better. There are also 200mm rotors, Shimano finned brake pads, and four piston calipers. I have Shimano Zee four piston calipers and 200/180 rotors on my no suspension 29+ and they are spectacular. There is no such thing as too good of brakes.
This has all been fun and, well, I just gotta jump in. My Ramblings:
Disc brakes and my local LBSs:
Every practicing mechanic I've talked with tells me that hydraulic disc brakes are virtually trouble-free for a very long time, just like your car. Period.
The bike I ride every day was owned by a man who rode the holy crap out of it on a regular basis for seven years. He was and still is a podium finisher in downhill MTB races; he never paid any attention to the hydraulic brakes. They never leaked; nothing fell off, and, well --- they just worked. He did manage to get the discs hot enough to warp them beyond straightening and it took new pads (plus rotors) to get rid of the unnerving squeal. Had his brakes been V-brakes, there would have significant maintenance over those same years and he would have probably run into a tree or two as his brakes faded, and -- he wouldn't have been a podium finisher.
About 30 years ago I was asked to analyze a bicycle crash that left a very fine and very nice man in a wheelchair. Bottom line: his rim brake pads faded and he could not stop before being tossed into a very big rock which then broke his spine and put him in said wheelchair.
About 50 years ago, when I was a club racer here in Southern California, I took frequent training rides north toward Oxnard on PCH. There was a downhill (going North) out of Malibu that would fade my rim brakes; in an emergency, I could not stop. Brakes are better now but they used to be simply terrible.
The main reason that virtually all 'cages' and motorcycles have disc brakes is because they are better: They 'feel' better; they have higher heat capacity than any drum or rim brake ever did; they are almost maintenance-free. Had that man I just referred to been riding a bike with now-contemporary hydraulic disc brakes, he would have been able to walk around the rest of his unfortunately shortened life.
The only criticism and complaint I have about the current hydraulic bicycle disc brakes is their heat capacity. While it is unlikely that I'll (fat, out of shape 74-year old man) ever need more brake heat capacity than my 180mm front rotors provide, I think I'd prefer a larger, thicker front disc if I were coasting down the Tioga pass out of Yosemite with a loaded touring bike.
Yes, any brake system can be 'faded' but I prefer to think us cyclists, in our pursuit of lightness may be pushing things a bit. (But good for Shimano for making things better with their aluminum-cored rotors -- something I used on motorcycles more than 35-years ago)
Finally: We cyclists are tail-enders. The arguments you may read in BF about disc brakes were settled decades ago in the rest of the motoring world. LOL
Joe
Disc brakes and my local LBSs:
Every practicing mechanic I've talked with tells me that hydraulic disc brakes are virtually trouble-free for a very long time, just like your car. Period.
The bike I ride every day was owned by a man who rode the holy crap out of it on a regular basis for seven years. He was and still is a podium finisher in downhill MTB races; he never paid any attention to the hydraulic brakes. They never leaked; nothing fell off, and, well --- they just worked. He did manage to get the discs hot enough to warp them beyond straightening and it took new pads (plus rotors) to get rid of the unnerving squeal. Had his brakes been V-brakes, there would have significant maintenance over those same years and he would have probably run into a tree or two as his brakes faded, and -- he wouldn't have been a podium finisher.
About 30 years ago I was asked to analyze a bicycle crash that left a very fine and very nice man in a wheelchair. Bottom line: his rim brake pads faded and he could not stop before being tossed into a very big rock which then broke his spine and put him in said wheelchair.
About 50 years ago, when I was a club racer here in Southern California, I took frequent training rides north toward Oxnard on PCH. There was a downhill (going North) out of Malibu that would fade my rim brakes; in an emergency, I could not stop. Brakes are better now but they used to be simply terrible.
The main reason that virtually all 'cages' and motorcycles have disc brakes is because they are better: They 'feel' better; they have higher heat capacity than any drum or rim brake ever did; they are almost maintenance-free. Had that man I just referred to been riding a bike with now-contemporary hydraulic disc brakes, he would have been able to walk around the rest of his unfortunately shortened life.
The only criticism and complaint I have about the current hydraulic bicycle disc brakes is their heat capacity. While it is unlikely that I'll (fat, out of shape 74-year old man) ever need more brake heat capacity than my 180mm front rotors provide, I think I'd prefer a larger, thicker front disc if I were coasting down the Tioga pass out of Yosemite with a loaded touring bike.
Yes, any brake system can be 'faded' but I prefer to think us cyclists, in our pursuit of lightness may be pushing things a bit. (But good for Shimano for making things better with their aluminum-cored rotors -- something I used on motorcycles more than 35-years ago)
Finally: We cyclists are tail-enders. The arguments you may read in BF about disc brakes were settled decades ago in the rest of the motoring world. LOL
Joe
05-01-16, 03:55 PM
#87
Jedi Master
I have BB7's on my touring bike, and I always thought they were terrible. After reading some of the positive reviews in this thread, I adjusted them so they work better, and now I like them a lot. Who knew?
05-01-16, 04:13 PM
#89
Jedi Master
I know. I never had disk brakes before, and I bought the bike new from a pretty good bike shop, so I figured they were adjusted properly and just sucked. I don't use the bike too frequently, so it didn't even really occur to me to try making some adjustments. Just being lazy I guess.
05-01-16, 04:35 PM
#90
Senior Member
Where I really notice the difference between rim and disc brakes is going from a disc brake bike to a rim brake bike. Recently, I almost ran off the road on a steep decent with rim brakes and a bit too much speed. I usually ride the same route with disc brakes, and am used to braking just before the corner. While it's really just a matter of adjusting my riding style and braking earlier with rim brakes, it does highlight the significant difference in stopping power. I can definitely brake later, more controlled and harder with disc brakes than with rim brakes.
05-02-16, 12:14 AM
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I know. I never had disk brakes before, and I bought the bike new from a pretty good bike shop, so I figured they were adjusted properly and just sucked. I don't use the bike too frequently, so it didn't even really occur to me to try making some adjustments. Just being lazy I guess.
05-02-16, 02:05 AM
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I'd buy Hdyro discs a lot faster than most other road sports would, if they were priced in line with hydro disc on MTBs, unfortunately they are very expensive. But at least most tourists don't use brifters so getting all the pieces to work together, or be at a reasonable cost, is not a big issue for tourists.
05-02-16, 02:18 AM
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Because they can have discs that weight what my bike does, and solid piping with no worries about aero, or looks. Though I did have my pickup brakes fail me catastrophically when approaching a bridge that was no longer there, good thing was no oncoming traffic and I did a 90 into a sideroad, But doubtless I had braked several times in the mile before, and then nothing. Really weird, no redundancy or brakes on some wheels not others.
05-02-16, 11:02 AM
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I bought a complete set of Shimano hydraulic disc brakes (ready to bolt-on) for $79 delivered to my door. They work very well, etc, etc -- etc.
I paid $125+ for a set of Shimano Ultegra calipers (only the calipers).
Excellent, state of the art, hydraulic disc brakes do not have to be expensive.
Joe
I paid $125+ for a set of Shimano Ultegra calipers (only the calipers).
Excellent, state of the art, hydraulic disc brakes do not have to be expensive.
Joe
05-02-16, 12:17 PM
#97
Jedi Master
For all the talk in this thread about how great hydraulic disk brakes are, it seems that they are not even an option on a traditional touring setup with bar-end shifters. I couldn't find any either.
05-02-16, 01:30 PM
#99
Senior Member
I bought a complete set of Shimano hydraulic disc brakes (ready to bolt-on) for $79 delivered to my door. They work very well, etc, etc -- etc.
I paid $125+ for a set of Shimano Ultegra calipers (only the calipers).
Excellent, state of the art, hydraulic disc brakes do not have to be expensive.
Joe
I paid $125+ for a set of Shimano Ultegra calipers (only the calipers).
Excellent, state of the art, hydraulic disc brakes do not have to be expensive.
Joe
05-02-16, 02:03 PM
#100
Senior Member
Then again I'm not convinced of the need for disk brakes at all at least for me, but I am kind of curious about them and would like to try them sometime. So thank everyone for your comments. Interesting discussion.