Failure mode of overloaded factory LHT.
#26
I used to be a fan of eyelets. Then I swapped my mountain bike from Mavic 319s to Stans Flow EX (to convert my MTB to tubeless for flat prevention). The Flow EX are 80 grams lighter and much more lateral stiffness.
After looking at everything the reason became clear. Old designs like Mavic 319/719/Open Pros/Open Sports have tall clincher beads and constant wall thickness. Modern tubeless ready rims have shorter beads variable wall thickness. The saved material is moved to the spoke track. With a thicker spoke track there's no need for eyelets. Combine that with variable wall thickness, properly designed thanks to CAD, stronger and lighter is possible for no additional cost.
In the two year interval I've sold off all my 319 wheels and switched everything to modern tubeless ready rims. Stans Flow EX on my MTB, SunRingle HelixTR25/27 on my GG/Tourer and DT R460 on my city bike. My road bike is running a Shimano tubeless wheelset.
Even if you don't want to run tubeless (today) TR rims are a better solution, they run tubes just fine and going forward you'll be able to take advantage of tubeless technology as it takes over the market.
After looking at everything the reason became clear. Old designs like Mavic 319/719/Open Pros/Open Sports have tall clincher beads and constant wall thickness. Modern tubeless ready rims have shorter beads variable wall thickness. The saved material is moved to the spoke track. With a thicker spoke track there's no need for eyelets. Combine that with variable wall thickness, properly designed thanks to CAD, stronger and lighter is possible for no additional cost.
In the two year interval I've sold off all my 319 wheels and switched everything to modern tubeless ready rims. Stans Flow EX on my MTB, SunRingle HelixTR25/27 on my GG/Tourer and DT R460 on my city bike. My road bike is running a Shimano tubeless wheelset.
Even if you don't want to run tubeless (today) TR rims are a better solution, they run tubes just fine and going forward you'll be able to take advantage of tubeless technology as it takes over the market.
Last edited by Mr IGH; 06-27-16 at 01:20 PM.
#27
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Joined: Dec 2013
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I'm a fan of the Ryde Andra 30 rims for bikes that will be abused. Also Velocity NoBS are a solid option too. I've overloaded a LHT like crazy and did not have any issues, the wheels ended up getting replaced because the rim sidewall split due to rim brake wear
#28
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Joined: Sep 2008
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ESquared, how many miles on those wheels? Curious if rim wear contributed to failure. For such big loads on a rim brake wheel I'd be inclined to go for the Ryde Andra rim if replacing rims occurs more than you like. The Rhynolites are a great value, after that I'd try VeloOrange Escapade or Velocity Atlas.
#29
Nigel
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,991
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From: San Jose, CA
Bikes: 1980s and 1990s steel: CyclePro, Nishiki, Schwinn, SR, Trek........
We're a 500+lbs tandem team; 40H Dyads worked fine for several thousand miles; then a spoke failure (straight 2.0mm spokes) in the front (captain is much heavier than the stoker). Changed to 48H, and went with Velocity NoBS (same price at Niagara) with Wheelsmith DB14 spokes.
The Dyad front rim was rebuilt with Wheelsmith DB15 spokes, and along the rear wheel is on a mid '90s Trek 720 based commuter.
Hubs are Wheelmaster "tandem" hubs; 135mm rear OLD.
The Dyad front rim was rebuilt with Wheelsmith DB15 spokes, and along the rear wheel is on a mid '90s Trek 720 based commuter.
Hubs are Wheelmaster "tandem" hubs; 135mm rear OLD.
#30
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,579
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From: Pearland, Texas
Bikes: Cannondale, Trek, Raleigh, Santana

Are you using brass nipples? I ask because my daughter hit "something" on her CX bike and the brass nipples on three or four of the spokes deformed and pulled through the rim preventing rim damage.
If you have trouble again, try some DT Alpine III spokes. I'm going to use them for my next wheel build because they'll fill the spoke hole in the hub better and provide more support area at that point. The 1.8 section will also provide a little bit of stretch under tension.
Brad
PS A trailer, as mentioned earlier, may very well be a good option even with the 60-70 lb. load
#31
I have a 2011 LHT and am fortunate to have relationships with shops who employee knowledgeable wheel people. I don't go ultra light and subject the bike to abuse. Indeed, just got back from an 11 day tour in Montana which featured some very harsh, unpaved roads, including one 20 mile section of dirt/rocks/gravel with massive washboards in places, including on descents. Third time the bike has been over that road since I got it. I think the wheels have been worked on twice. With that said, I am curious as to what rim the OP broke. My '11 LHT came stock with Alex Adventurer rims. IIRC, Surly switched to a different rim a few years ago.
#32
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,053
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From: Fife Scotland
Bikes: Airnimal Chameleon; Ellis Briggs; Moulton TSR27 Moulton Esprit
Split the alex rims. Surly rear rack, properly tensioned wheels. Well over reasonable capacity with rider plus cargo. The wheel post-mortem is attached. I'm just glad that the weak link was a 40usd replacement and not the rack or frame.
I've had good luck with 36 spoke Sun Ringle disk rims on a MTB. If the Alex fails again, are Rhyno lites any stronger?
I've had good luck with 36 spoke Sun Ringle disk rims on a MTB. If the Alex fails again, are Rhyno lites any stronger?
That looks like over-tensioned spokes to me and I'd be interested in who made them.
Edit: I see now that these were the original factory-made wheels so have to agree with the poster up-thread who made the point that these should always be evened up in tension and then thoroughly stressed/de-stressed.
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"Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and writing an exact man". Francis Bacon
Last edited by onbike 1939; 06-28-16 at 04:49 AM.
#33
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Joined: Sep 2011
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That looks like over-tensioned spokes to me
how many miles on those wheels? Curious if rim wear contributed to failure.
brass nipples on three or four of the spokes deformed and pulled through the rim preventing rim damage.
Last edited by ExtremeSquared; 06-28-16 at 08:24 AM.
#34
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Joined: Jun 2010
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From: Pearland, Texas
Bikes: Cannondale, Trek, Raleigh, Santana
ES, Amazingly the rim showed no galling or cracks and the affected nipples' shoulder simply deformed upwards to the same diameter of the spoke hole. In between pregnancies, she's put quite a few miles on the bike since I repaired the wheel.
Brad
Brad
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