saddlesores

good news! technology is gooder now. you should remove 8 spokes from each wheel
to lighten the load so's you can go faster. less weight, more aerodynamical!
zoom-zoom, baby!

indyfabz

Right after I get rid of my flip phone.

Happy Feet

You are.. we aren't.

Some of us can combine basic intelligence with experience to determine what works, what doesn't, and what we don't want to waste time with. I have never been on a tour and looked down at my spokes and thought.. "Gee, I wish I didn't have as many of those". I've thought that about other things but never about my spokes.

I don't think anyone is fooled by your attempts to compensate for a lack of experience by parroting stuff you have read on the internet nor do I think anyone feels stuck because technology has gotten "more complicated".

Going on a 1000km tour in June on my current spokes, 2000km's 6 months ago. Haven't thought about them once since I put them on. Probably won't until the rims wear out. Lot's of people are doing the same thing all the time but fill yer boots trying to tell us all we don't know what we are doing.

100km ride yesterday

saddlesores

cyccommute 

Sorry but math and physics still work pretty much the same way that they have worked for the last couple of hundred years. We've gotten better at measuring but the math isn't any different.

As for the technology, I hear all kinds of people parrot the line "but rims are so much stronger now" which just tells me that the parrots are being, well, parrots. How many wheels have you personally built? How many miles of touring have you personally ridden? How many years have you been building wheels and touring?

I've built dozens of wheelsets over the last 31 years and, frankly, I haven't noticed any large changes in the rim technology in the last 25 years or so. Early rims were single walled and not all that strong. Newer rims are almost all double wall but the thickness of the metal hasn't changed appreciably in that 25 years.

If anything, the metal in the walls has gotten thinner as rims have lost weight which makes sense if you think about it. A 500g rim can't become a 350g rim without losing a whole lot of metal. And, as aluminum isn't that strong a metal to begin with, losing 10%, 20% or 40% of the weight means losing strength.

I also haven't seen anyone use "fancy smash-em-up equipment" to test rim strength nor even wheel strength. Everyone just keeps saying that "rims are so much stronger now than they used to be" without anything to back it up. The only real numbers I've seen from "fancy smash-em-up equipment" is Pillar Spokes' measurements of spoke strength. Even DT doesn't provide the strength measurements that Pillar does. If you dig down into the data, you can easily see that changing the cross-sectional area of a spoke by 0.3mm (2.0mm to 2.3mm) increases the spoke strength significantly. Buttting the spoke also increases the breaking strength.

Here's a bit of a thought experiment for you: Assume that each spoke in a 28 spoke wheel has a value of 1 for the load that the spoke carries. If you increase the spokes to 32, each spoke is now is carrying a load of 0.875. If you increase to 36 spokes, each spoke is carrying a load of 0.78. If you go the other way and assign a value of 1 to each spoke in a 36 spoke wheel, each spoke in a 32 and 28 spoke wheel increases the load to 1.12 and 1.28, respectively. More load means more fatigue on the spokes and less strength in the wheel.

Each spoke in a 28 spoke wheel has to carry significantly more load than the spokes in a 36 spoke wheel. Now break one of the spokes in each wheel. In a 28 spoke wheel, the gap between the spoke is much larger and the wheel is going to warp out of true more while placing more stress on the surrounding spokes than the 36 spoke wheel. This will result in a more compromised wheels and is more likely to result in the need for a wheel rebuilt than if you broke a single spoke on a 36 hole wheel.

Most people who have actually toured understand that a stronger wheel is desirable. If nothing else, replacing spokes in the field is difficult and to be avoided. Over engineering the wheels so that you don't have to replace spokes is desirable and, in the grand scheme of things, doesn't cost much in terms of weight difference. It pays lots of benefit in terms of peace of mind.

Doug64

I weighed 16 of my 700c spokes and nipples, and they weighed 4.5 ounces, hardly a significant weight savings

Mr IGH

Stans Flows EX are very stiff, the Crest and Arch are not as heavy or as stiff. Same story for the road rims, the 340gm road rim is flexible but the 400gm road rim has a good reputation.

My first comparison is when I replaced my Mavic 319, 32H rims with Stans Flow EX 32H. I used the exact same hub/spokes and nipples (same erd). I have built ~25 wheels with the 319 in 36H mostly but this wheelset was 32 hole because I couldn't find a low-cost thru axle hub in 36H. As I have stated, I was really surprised by the increase in lateral stiffness, esp since the Flow EX rims weighted 80gms less.

For the Mavic Open Sport vs SunRingle, I built a set of the Open Sports in 32H with DT 2.0/1.8 spokes and the HelixTR 25 rims in 32H with DT 2.0/1.8 spokes, again, the increase in lateral stiffness was very noticeable.

For Open Pros vs DT R460, both wheelsets were 32H and DT 2.0/1.8m spokes. Before building with the DT R460, I didn't like building with 450gm clincher rims, I felt they were too flexible. Now I ride the DT R460s on a commuter bike, they are stiffer than an Open Sport and 40gms lighter.

(I have built over 1000 wheels including National Champion Match Sprint and RAAM winners, insulting name calling ("parrot") does not make an engineering discussion).

bradtx

But if you convert to grams it comes to 127...enough to rip the heart out of a weight weenie!

Brad

cyccommute 

You aren't the one who the "parrot" comment was aimed at. You have wheel building experience although I do question the subjectiveness of your measurement of rim stiffness. I also question how the idea of making a rim lighter...i.e. removing aluminum...while increasing stiffness. The profiles of these rims aren't radically different and shaving a little bit of soft metal and moving it around isn't going to result in appreciable gains in stiffness.

The "parrot" comment was aimed at someone who obviously has no wheel building experience and, as far as most of us can tell, no touring experience. He is arguing at a 28 spoke wheel is just as good because of "superior new technology" as 36 hole wheels. I noticed in your descriptions above that you don't seem to be running wheels with that few spokes. I'm reasonably certain that we could both build a 28 spoke wheel that would be serviceable but I doubt that either of us would want to use it on a touring bike.

Doug64

True! However, I have looked down at my spokes wishing I had a few more when the spokes on my 32 spoke front wheel started breaking. I started breaking a spoke 3 days to a week apart. I broke 3 before the end of the tour, but had a good set of 36 spoke wheels built when I got home.


I was able to get to a bike shop for replacements (Pacific Coast Route, Bicycles 101, Florence, OR), but I was always waiting for the next "ping".

Happy Feet

Yep. I think someone has to have had a mechanical problem or two that threatens to derail a big trip that has taken a lot of planning and investment to perhaps understand why going with dependable and proven design is appealing. It's the contextual part that experience brings that's sometimes absent in a theory only discussion.

Mr IGH

Couple points
- the rims I mention are not expensive, some are cheaper than the old standbys. It doesn't cost extra money to take advantage of new designs.
- wheel building is an artisan activity, after the first 300~400 wheels a builder develops experience handling various configurations. Experienced woodworkers, metal worker etc have the same experienced "feel". It's not subjective and I invite anyone to my place in Greeley CO to compare their 36H solutions to a modern 32H solution.
- Get ready, soon disc brake touring bikes will have tubeless ready rims and there's not much choice in 36H.
- if 32 spokes wasn't enough, why are 36 ok? ~10% more spokes doesn't give much margin over failed 32H wheels. More likely is the 32H wheels were built with double-butted spokes. I have fixed several wheelsets simply by changing from 2.0/1.8 spokes to 2.0 spokes. Trek wheels are notorious for being sold with 2.0/1.8 spokes that just don't last. I know several tourers that swear wheels need to be 40H, nothing less will do, why not 48H or even 72H?

elcruxio

That's true. But for example all Stan's rims are at least in my opinion quite overpriced as they're well over 70e in Europe.

Except 'feel' is kinda totally subjective. "I feel..." is the start of a 100% subjective phrase and it is not changed by the fact that one has made a lot of something. There are a lot of artisans who disregard science or engineering and go by feel or "the way it's always been done" thus creating inferior products. They may be pretty, but not necessarily better than their high tech counterparts.

Also, we actually don't need to come to your shop to test stuff as lateral wheel stiffness is really easy to test right at home. I'll test my 36 spoke wheels against any of your 32 spoke wheels. Mount the wheel horizally so that it's completely immobile and hang a weight from the rim. See how much deflection there is at any given weight and you get an objective reading to test stiffness against.

Why would 36 spoke rims go out of vogue? they're used in more than just touring and quite a few rim manufacturers still offer their own touring specific rims. DT Swiss has a ton of all kinds of new fangled cool stuff going on in rims and they still offer one of the best touring rims on the market: the TK540

So a few things to go through here.
Firstly
36 rather than 32 because we can? There are still rims and hubs made with 36h and it is objectively stronger than a 32. However when you go above 36 in a 26" wheel you start to get different kinds of problems, ie. the rim bed weakening significantly from too many hole drillings in the rim middle well (this was stated directly by Velocity btw). You could go to 40 with 28" rims but 40h rims and hubs are a lot harder to come by than 36h so a lot of us use 36.

Secondly, if I understood correctly, you are stating that double butted spokes are weaker than straight gauge? Guess what is DT Swiss's strongest spoke? A triple butted one! That's right, the DT Swiss Alpine III is 2.0/1.8/2.3. I was going to explain how it works but can't remember the exact wording. Let's just say that it's pretty much common knowledge in wheel building circles that butted spokes are stronger than straight gauge.

The Trek 520 my wife bought had straight gauge spokes. I went through her wheels and checked that everything was equally tensioned, stress relieved etc etc. Her own weight, gear and bicycle weighed as much as I did nekkid. She had spokes break. On the other hand I had triple butted spokes and the wheelset is still going strong after 8 000 miles, half of it fully loaded heavy touring.

I'm guessing it's not about Trek is using butted spokes. I think it's about bontrager being utter sheite and using carp spokes.

Squeezebox

Trek admitted that the 720 wheel recall was about poor quality spokes.
And lots of people say their lower count wheels are holding up as well as your wife's with better spokes.
So maybe there is no right answer about spoke count, or several right answers.

cyccommute 

"Old standbys" aren't necessarily the same as they were a few years ago. Rims are constantly being redesigned. I have wheels built from "tubeless" ready rims and they are so similar to non-tubeless ready rims from the same manufacturer that I don't really see what "tubeless" ready means. They are still hook bead rims that can be used with regular tubed tires at high pressure. You are the only person to claim that metal has been taken from one part of the rim and moved to another. It's certainly not something that I've seen in advertising copy nor in technical bulletins.

I spend my days doing quantitative measurements. I have a feel for the qualitative nature of the measurement but I also know that my qualitative...aka subjective or "feel"...measurement means nothing. It's off by 20% to 50% when actually measured. Qualitative measures often are off by a lot which is why people whether experienced or not usually rely on actual measurement rather than just eyeballing something.

You have claimed elsewhere that tubeless ready rims are "stronger" while here you are claiming that they are "stiffer". The stiffer claim I might accept based on a subjective "feel" except that you are also claiming that they are stiffer even though they are lighter. That flies in the face of what I know about the material. That slight reduction in the bead bed you are talking about is a tiny amount if material that won't make much difference if placed elsewhere on the rim.

As for comparing "36H solutions to a modern 32H solution", how would you go about comparing the strength of the two wheels? More importantly how would you compare the durability of the two wheels? Just push down on the two rims and declare the one that is the stiffest is the best? Sorry, that doesn't mean anything.

Just like modern touring bikes have STI shifters, electronic shifting, are made of carbon fiber, weigh 14 pounds, etc.? Touring cyclists are slow to accept any changes. There are lots of people out there arguing that threadless headsets are bad things for touring bicycles and that aluminum is going to asplode if you look at it funny. Do you really think that they are going to run out and embrace tubeless?

I'm not sure what your point is or if you are just trying to make an absurdist argument. 36 spokes works better than 32 because there are more spokes doing the same job so there is less load on all the spokes of the wheel. 32 spokes work better than 28 for the same reason. 40 spokes will do a better job than 36 for exactly the same reason. More spokes means each spoke has to work less which means a stronger more durable wheel. But you should know that from all your wheelbuilding experience.

You are also about the only wheelbuilder I've ever read that doesn't embrace butted spokes which puts you way back behind the technology curve. Double butted spokes have been around forever and their benefits are well known. You bust my chops all the time about "tubeless ready" rims and how I should embrace that technology but you refuse to use double butted spokes or triple butted spokes which have even more benefit than the double butted ones. Don't believe me? Perhaps you'll believe the founder of Wheel Smith. I learned that lesson about 20 years ago when DT introduced triple butted spokes.

In fact, if I want to build a 28 hole wheel that were strong enough to tour on, I'd start with a triple butted spoke for exactly the reason that Eric Hjertberg points out. I don't necessarily agree that triple butted spokes can make a 28 spoke wheel perform like a 36 (or 38) but it certainly makes the wheel as strong as the next step up in spoke number.

There are also quantitative measurements out there that show how a triple butted (or even double butted) spoke is stronger than a straight gauge spoke. I think I've linked to Pillar in this thread.

alan s 

Even this wheel could stand for additional spokes. I think it has 144.

Boondocksaints

I am now researching building up from a titanium frame. I found a good dealer but they have 3 types of Ti-frames - Road, Mountain and Cyclo.

Which would be most conducive to a tourer? I basically want a do-it-all commuter (in NYC), so not too heavy like a traditional touring bike - fast-paced road riding, but also like it to be worthy of loaded touring or off road. Also need to be able to carry groceries. I know this sounds exactly like a cyclocross bike, but I want the option of front panniers as well.

I'm going nuts researching bike geometries and getting confused.

saddlesores

disagree unless you're comparing apples to orangutans.

you could make a 28-spoke wheel built with the best components perform equal to or even better
than a 32- or even 36-spoke wheel of lesser components.

but given both wheels built at the same quality level, then the higher spoke count (within reason)
wheel certainly would be stronger.

the reverse is true as well, as evidenced by trek, the first manufacturer able to build a 28-spoke
wheel using mediocre components, with the same final strength only slightly less than the
average 16-spoke wheel.

elcruxio

It still sounds exactly like a cyclocross... Just get a fork with front rack eyelets.
Definitely not road if you're planning on using rear panniers or even front panniers. The geometry is too compact for rear panniers so you'll likely have issues with heel strikes, or you'll have to hang the bags so back that you'll have handling issues from them. Front bags with a road geo could work but still, it's a road bike, not a loaded tourer.

With mountain you'll likely face issues with mounting a drop bar. Depending on the geo it'll either be a non issue, difficult or out of the question. Hard to say without seeing the actual geo chart. Stability wise a mountain geo is good for loaded touring, if a bit high in the bottom bracket.

I'd take the CX, I've toured with a CX with no issues, but if I had to choose again, I'd still take my trusty LHT. Works as my road bike currently. I've understood NYC doesn't have that many hills so I don't really understand what the weight has to do with it. Also, I'd imagine a Ti frame would be quite a target for bike thieves so I'm assuming you have indoor lockable storage areas sorted already.

Boondocksaints

I can just bring the bike into my apartment.

Yes good advice - I'm leaning toward the cyclo frame as well. Just wanted some confirmation

I was also thinking of just building from a Surly Cross Check, Jamis Aurora or Specialized AWOL frame. Cheaper than Titanium.

bradtx

No doubt that a Ti bike would be nice, but yes, it'll cost much more. At this point however, a Ti frame won't be a good idea if you don't know exactly what it is you're looking for. You could end up with an expensive frame that doesn't suit your needs.

If there is a budget to adhere to buy something like a Bianchi Volpe and then modify it to suit your varied purposes. This can give you a running start in gaining knowledge for the mechanics of a frame build-up.

Brad

Brad

shelbyfv

It's interesting that despite this vast experience, you personally ride Mavic Aksiums and advocate straight gauge spokes! When you seek to create an internet persona, the details can come back and bite you

Tourist in MSN

I think most bike companies that specialize in Titanium frames will tell you which frames they feel are too light for carrying a load of groceries or panniers.

As noted above, carrying front panniers is a choice of the fork, not the frame. And also as noted above, most non-touring bikes will have shorter chainstays that are not rear pannier friendly.

There was a good thread here, if you have not looked at it you might want to:
https://www.bikeforums.net/touring/10...ium-frame.html

A touring buddy of mine tours on a Habenaro and he is happy with it. He has his panniers pushed as far forward as he can get them while still avoiding heel strike, when the panniers were farther back he had some shimmy. The attached photo shows his Habanero on the left (my steel framed Thorn Sherpa is on the right). He is much more weight conscious than me, he even took the computer off the bike which saved virtually nothing. In the photo he has a saddle with carbon rails, but he was complaining on the trip that he wished he had brought his Brooks saddle instead.

I learned last month that Lynskey has been selling some frames on Ebay. I bought a Backroad model frame there last month. I do all my own bike work, so for me labor is free. I am 95 percent completed on building it up.

Keep in mind that Titanium does not automatically make the entire bike that much lighter. For my touring Titanium bike build, the rear wheel is built for loaded touring, not for lightweight road riding. My rear wheel with a 37mm wide tire and a 11/32 cassette on it weighs more than my Titanium frame (without fork). So, it shaved a few pounds off the bike, but not a huge reduction. If your goal was big time weight reduction, you might not get what you want, you will need to look at weight of racks, rims, tires, fork, saddle, etc.

I am still having some trouble with Lynskey on the rear brake mount, the Ebay listing was for an IS mount and they shipped a flat mount, then I finally got a bolt on post mount from them yesterday and ... ... it is defective. So, I am having some difficulties with Lynskey customer service which I am finding to be very poor. But I expect to be rolling in a couple weeks on a nice Titanium touring bike. The problem with going to Ebay to find the frame you want in your size is that it might never appear there. When I first looked, I saw the frame that was in my size and the model I was interested in, auction would end in a few days. When I checked on completed sales over the prior 3 months on Ebay to see what the prices had been running, this was the first one that they had listed in my size and model, so it was pure luck that within days of me looking at Ebay it was there. It does carry the full Lynskey warranty. I do not know if it is overstock or what, it is not a defective frame. But I got substantial savings compared to what they normally sell the frame for.

cyccommute 

I think you misunderstood. A 28 spoke wheel built with triple butted spokes would probably be as strong as a 32 or maybe 36 spoke wheel built with double butted or single butted spokes. Eric Hjertberg at Wheel Fanaytk thinks that triple butted spokes (2.3/1.8/2.0) are equivalent to 10 extra 2.0mm or 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes. I wouldn't go that far.

Of course, if you build both a 28 and a 36 spoke wheel with triple butted spokes, the 36 spoke wheel is hands down stronger.

I think almost all of us can agree that an OEM machine built wheel is probably not going to perform all that well. An OEM machine built wheel with 28 spokes is going to perform much worse than a 36 spoke OEM machine built wheel and far worse than a well designed handbuilt wheel.

saddlesores

zackly! a 28er with great spokes could be as strong as a 32er with average spokes.
but sensible tourists would of course put those great spokes in their 32er or 36er hub
for even stronger wheels.