BigFinner

So I picked up this Apollo a few weeks ago and am very happy with it so far. It is a 1985 Apollo Regent with only a couple 100 kms when I purchased it and once cleaned up looks like it came from straight off the bike shop floor. The frame was built in Japan by Kuwahara and from what I have been able to research on it there is a very high probability it was hand built. It is essentially a Kuwahara Caravan rebadged as an Apollo. The biggest negative of the bike is it does not have brake bosses so I am stuck with the current side pull brakes, That surprisingly are not to bad. I have new kool stop pads I will be putting on soon. If they are a problem I guess I can always throw on some dual pivot brakes. I have been touring on my 1988 TREK 850 but it has a lot of kms on it and even though it is an XL frame I am 6'4" 225 lbs and have always wished the trek was bigger. Now the Apollo is BIG and I love the way it fits and feels.

So here are a few of my questions.

1. With the Apollo frame being so large will it become a noodle when loaded? FYI- All I have done since buying the bike is clean it up, remove the crusty dried out tires/tubes and add new ones and overall in quick little spins the bike feels great and it very tight, no noodle feel at all, but then again it is completely unloaded. All this said I have toured quite a bit and have gotten quite efficient at getting weight down quite a ways. Now in the case that we are camping and having a lot more weight I have a BOB YAK pull behind gear trailer that I use for those trips rather than front and rear panniers.

2. If the bike does become flexy when loaded what is the best load strategy to combat that?

3. Does anyone know if a good solid rack will make a bike frame a little stiffer or not? And if so which racks are best for that?

For a little more info on the changes I plan to make the bike will get butterfly bars with 2 sets of brake levers. On the front section of the bar the original levers with cables run on to the back flat section to a set of mtn cantilever brake levers (see bottom picture). The downtube shifters will be moved to become stem shifters for easy access. Other than that I plan to keep it pretty stock for the time being as I love the components and they all run smooth as silk. At some point the 700c wheels may go and I may opt for a longer adjustable stem to sit up a little straighter but those are just options right now. I am open to any thoughts or advice on this build. Thanks

Here are a few pics of the bike.

BigFinner

Here is my current Trek 850 touring set up.

Brian25

looks like a fun project. Unfortunately Racks will not make the bike any stiffer. I doubt that a bike like that would turn into a flex noodle once you add panniers and load. I would highly recommend some type of "hands on" type of shifter upgrade. Going from downtube shifters to stem shifters would not be much of an upgrade. ( you still will have to ride one handed when shifting, so shifting when you are off of the saddle will still not be possible).

BigFinner

That's good to hear. Curious as to what makes you think the bike will not be flexy? Is it something you see or something I mentioned, or something you know about Kuwahara frames?


Off the saddle with a crap monkey dancing on the burley ride behind makes things even worse, trust me, I have experience with that. Ha!

With our set up and pulling young kids around the ability to shift with both hands firmly on the bars was one of my top concerns. Fortunately the way the butterfly bars sit when my hands are on the rear part of the bars I will be easily able to reach the shifters with my thumbs or pointer finger (This was actually the first thing I rough tested with the butterfly bars in position sitting loosely on top of the drop bars/stem.)

saddlesores

instead of stem shifters, go with a some 3*7 trigger shifters, assuming compatible
with the deraillers. microshift plays nice and not so expensive. microshift also
makes 3*7 gripshift compatible with shimano

or go vintage with classic thumbshifters.

you are big and heavy and your gear will be heavy and you might
pull a trailer....

you might buy a 1"(?) threaded(?) steel fork on ebay, with v-brake mounts and
midfork eyelets to mount a lowrider.

vintage CENTURION 1" fork touring 700C randonneur threaded tange | eBay

Brian25

My joke about why I think why the frame will not be flexy under load is the "made out of 100% beefarino tubing" sticker on the seat tube.

Seriously the frame is likely made from some heavier gauge tubing. The frames that (in my opinon that are expected to flex are the superlight frames where the tubing wall thickness is .4mm -- certainly thinner than your thumbnail.) Funny how things that people worry about have changed, I have been "into" bikes for over 40 years, and back then, even the racers did not worry so much about their bikes "flexing" Even if this bike does end up with some flexing, why would that bother you, you are not racing, right?

BigFinner

I have deore XT thumbshifters and an XT rear derailleur sitting in my extra parts bin, so that would be easy to do. I just would like to keep the original look and feel of the bike as the original parts are almost a work of art.


I have about 10,000 kms on my BOB trailer from previous cycle touring trips in the past when I had camping equipment and other heavy gear and wanted it off my bike. It's work but not that hard. Trust me I pulling my bob trailer with gear is a lot easier than adding kids to trip. The earlier picture with both kids on ride behind bikes was this summers cycling trip about 700kms in total and at least my son could help a little by pedaling. Below is a picture of last summers cycling trip where we did about the same kms and it was only slightly tougher than this years trip.






Thanks but it still wouldn't help me with the rear brakes. Also a lot of my goal is to keep the beautiful look the bike currently has.

52telecaster

that bike looks awesome. i wouldnt change much. if you really need better brakes dual pivot tektros are as good as it gets for stopping power, but i bet what you have will work great. as for the noodly handling, if it doesnt now it wont be too bad loaded. also, many lowrider racks come with hardware to mount on forks that dont have eyelets, so that shouldnt be a problem. the only thing i would do different is to use a bar that i could put barcons on for shifting but thats just my preference. i think you scored big time!

BigFinner

I suspect you have never had your bike go into a heavy speed wobble going down a hill due to frame flex when pulling a gear trailer, or heavily loaded with panniers or loader with panniers while pulling a 4 year old on a ride behind bike? Trust me if you had faced any of those you would understand why frame flex is a concern.

saddlesores

i mentioned the trailer/gear because of those wee, tiny brakes.
i would rather have some good brakes up front, since that's
where 72.456% (est.) of braking is done.

solid black fork would work well with the current look, and some
full-coverage fenders would be awesome.

get a small v-brake mounted platform rack (nashbar got 'em)
and the v-brakes will be invisible.

regardless, i don't see where v-brakes would affect the look as
much as switching to butterfly/trekking bars.

BigFinner

What are these? I'm quite intrigued?

BigFinner

Thanks. Ya the brakes are actually pretty good. Once the kool stop pads are on I think they will be up to the task.

There are double eyelets on the forks and on the rear triangle, as it is a touring bike. However for some strange reason it does not have braze-ons half way up the forks or on the upper rear triangle. Oh well at least fork brackets and rear triangle clamps are very easy to come by.

I only like drop bars on my race road bike. Just preference I guess but I would never want to tour with drops and I'm not a real fan of bar end shifters either. I've found those that typically have a problem with trekking bars have that issue due to perception and not experience. I've found them to be so much more versatile than any other bar on the market and make many different touring situations far safer.

I am thinking of running my larger panniers on the front rack and smaller ones on the back. Especially when the ride behind burley kid bike is attached to the rack. Have you or anyone else heard how running larger, heavier panniers in the front translates into feel and other things while touring?

saddlesores

here's the one from nashbar

Nashbar Sixer Front Rack

you can get this type in black or silver.
there are other similar racks out there, more utilitarian
without the flat panel, more squared off.

you might also look at some classic blackburn front racks,
with or without solid platform.

BigFinner

Oh I see. I thought you were saying the front rack had brake bosses on them, not that the rack attached to the brake bosses?

I have some silver blackburn racks in my stash that I was planning to put one of them on the front. On the back I need the burley moose-rack pulled off my trek as it is what the burley ride behind gimble attaches to.

52telecaster

i have run large panniers on front at times. it can get a little weird until your used to it. just go easy and make sure they dont sway. swaying in front is way worse than in back. as for trekking bars, i think they are a great solution. like you i dont use drop bars for touring anymore.......

52telecaster

awesome looking bike!

saddlesores

thanks!
wish it were mine, but is only a 'zample image.
the googles found it for me in 0.023 seconds.

djb

re noodly, I bought a kuwahara in 90 or 91, (still own it) and toured on it a bunch of times. Your frame is older, may be diff tubing, plus its bigger (less stiff?), but mine was a little flexy when riding standing up, but I really only noticed how flexy when decades later I got a new tourer, and noticed how much stiffer the new bike was--but that said, I rode that bike loaded a fair amount and had a great time on my trips, so you'll just have to see how it is.

re racks, my feeling is that a stiffer rack front or back will help how a bike feels riding.

re gearing, yours is a 6 speed right? Mine was 7 and so you could lookk into the rear wheel spacing , probably 126mm, and see if its a freewheel or a cassette, and what 7 speed stuff you can put on it, or even if you can go to 8. Given that you'll be buying trigger shifters anyway, go as high as you can, if 8 great, if 7 then thats what it is.

butterfly bars work well, I like them, and while I dont really get the need to do the double brake lever tihng, try it and see, personally I really dont see the need at all. I ride a commuter with these bars and its fine with the mtn bike brake levers only and 7 spped trigger shifters.

checoles

For the record, stick 'NSFW' in the title next time... offt. Lovely bike!

mstateglfr 

The frame will almost certainly flex more than a modern steel frame due to a few things, but most likely just due to the narrower tubes used. I am your size and have 80s touring bikes- its just part of the reality when they get loaded down with some weight.

If the bike flexes a lot, i would think it would be more in the chainstays/bottom bracket area rather than some shimmy from weight. The torque placed on the crankset/bottom bracket area seems to make the chainstays flex a bit.

You mention wanting to retain the original look- you are about to add butterfly bars to a classic styled 80s road bike. The original look will be completely out the window. No judgement, its your bike and you should make it as usable as possible, just saying that the original look will be totally gone so why worry about it for other changes? I dont get the multiple brakes thing, but if it works, it works.

To address a comment in another post- Kuwahara made frames that were really nice, that were mid-range, and that were entry level. There is nothing inherently special about a Kuwahara frame that will keep it from flexing.



Thats a neat bike. Seriously looks nearly untouched. Really wonky that it has dropout mounts for racks and fenders on both the front and rear, but no upper mounts. What an odd frame decision.

Totally cool that you get out as a family on adventures. That is some really incredible experience and learning for your kids and family overall. Even if the details arent remembered years from now, the overall ideas of adventure, planning then implementation, and seeing what is all around you will stick with them.

BigFinner

Thanks that's helpful. BTW what model kuwahara did you have?


We have toured a good portion of SE Asia before kids. We are likely going to cycle Malaysia with the kids this winter. Hence I want very quick access to being able to hit my brakes no matter where my hands are on the bars. (On a side note I really like the look of the original levers as well.)

From my experience cycling SE Asia the rules of the road are that the largest vehicle has right of way and scooters are allowed to travel wherever they wish including sidewalks. Pretty sure that sums up the driving exam answers you need to know to get your license there. Ha!

BigFinner

'NSFW' means not safe for work right? Why would that be? Because there are pictures?

What does offt mean?

checoles

Because that bike is vintage porn. I love a pristine vintage bike. Offt is the noise you make when you see it

Tourist in MSN

I assume you do not plan to put much weight on a rear rack and not have a front rack since you appear to have used trailers in the past for most of the load. Based on this, the bike should work well.

I use a Tubus Logo for most of my touring but I recently bought a RackTime AddIt rack and used that for one tour. I really like both racks, but the Logo is the stronger one. They both are quite stiff. Both have lower mounting points that allow you to get the panniers a bit lower.

You should set your panniers so that you have just enough heel clearance. If you have more heel clearance than you really need, that will add to frame flex if you have much weight in your rear panniers.

If you plan to put much weight on the bike, consider upgrading your rear wheel to a cassette type hub instead of freewheel, the axle would be much stronger. I assume this is a 126mm rear dropout spacing, you could probably put a 130mm rear hub in the frame without any problem.

The bike looks old enough that I suggest you re-grease both hubs and the bottom bracket if you have not done so yet.

BigFinner

Thanks good to know. I might just use it for the lighter warm weather touring trips we do when not having to haul camping gear. We all have gotten quite good at packing very light. Also having the kids on trail behind bikes helps and the way the burley's attach to the solid pannier works way better for not causing flex compared to the seat post attachment ride behinds.

I might rebuild my trek to have for any larger weight touring.


Yes it is definitely a function choice. I personally find drop bars to be the worst bar choice for touring. However I did purchase silver butterfly bars to blend with the look of the bike.

Not saying this is you but for some odd reason many North Americans seem to have a heavy distaste for butterfly bars and I'm not sure why? Europe was the first place I saw them and found a large majority of cycle touring bikes there use them.


Thanks. Ya my thoughts on the upper mounts as well.


Our thoughts as well. They have been biking in one form or another since birth and it has seemed to translate into some pretty good biking skills for each of them. They both started riding 2 wheelers without training wheels at 2 years old and then started racing at our BMX track at 3 (track told us they were the only 3 year olds to ever race on the track.) Son is now 4, has to race 5 year olds as that's where ages start and he wins a fair share of races. Daughter is 5 and after winning every race against the 5&6 girls they put her into the boys 6 expert class and she has not lost a race there either.