warek

Hi there

I bought a second hand 25-35-year-old Reynolds 531 Super Tourist frame and fork touring/commuting bike. It was originally 27-inch wheels. I had S and S couplers added, and upgraded it with mtb triple cranks, 32 spoke velocity deep V 700 c wheels, Brooks B17 saddle, Shimano dual pivot road brakes, with long reach arms, rear tubus rack ortlieb rear panniers a front handlebar bag.

I weight about 95 kg or 200 lbs and found on my first lightly laden tour that down most significant hills I was unable to slow the bike to a complete stop. I applied the brakes heavily at the top to keep the speed to below 25 mph or 40 kmh and could not come to a complete stop until the hill gradient levelled out. Brake pads are good, callipers centred over the aluminium rims, weather conditions dry, road was sealed and tyres good 28 mm continental GP 4000S

There were 3 other cyclists in our tour who all rode down the hill much faster than I did and stopped without any difficulty. Two with road bikes with dual pivot brakes and one on a Giant hybrid with V brakes.

My question is can I upgrade my bike braking and is it cost effective or should I buy a new touring bike such as Trek 520 disc, Surly Disc LHT, or Kona Sutra, Vivente World randonneur etc

I did think about taking it to a frame builder getting V brake mounts welded onto the old frame and then re powder coating and changing brake levers etc as one option. I thought about buying new disc wheels and upgrading to cable brake system. I have several sets of heavy duty wheels, in good condition designed for rim brakes.
I imagine that SS couplers with a cable joiner on the rear brake, will have some effective on brake efficiency, but it is dangerous as it is.

Thanks for any suggestions?

Cheers

Kevin

twodownzero

I suggest better tires. 28mm racing tires are not for touring.

MarcusT

Not being a certified mechanic, I am just going to throw out some quick ones.
Are you sure the rims are designed for pad brakes and not disc brakes? I know that is a no brainer, but it can happen.
What condition/quality are the brake pads? I find Clarks pads more effective than Shimano
Are the brake pads properly set so they hit flush with the rim, so there is no flex? It takes me several attempts to get it right
Is it possible some lube got on the rims or pads? Can happen anywhere, any time

Hopefully, it is something simple.

As far as fixing or replacing? For me, comfort is the biggest factor for a touring bike. If your present bike is comfortable enough to ride all day, I think it is worth saving. Trying to convert it to disc will cost half of a new bike (disc set, wheels, forks). I converted my MTB to touring and am very satisfied, to replace it, I would need to find a very good bargain on a very comfortable bike.
Cheers!

79pmooney

1) Details - cables and housings in good shape, the housing not coompressing much, no kinks or hard turns? Good pads (Koolstop perhaps) Good levers with enough power/leverage? Are you braking from the hoods or the drops? This is a heavy package and you are running long reach brakes, so all has to be in good order for good stopping. How far off the rim are the pads when not braking and how much of your lever squeeze gets used up before the brakes are working?

Also, continually braking is a sure way to get yhour rims and pads as hot as possible. Your friends are doing it right. If you feel you need to bleed speed, do it with hard slows, then release completely.

Your tires have nothing to do with this except that running highish pressures and spending a lot of time dragging the brakes may well raise temperatures and tire pressures to blowout levels. On a related note; your rims are aluminum, no? Carbon fiber is NOT what you want here!

Ben

alan s 

Pics would be helpful.

HTupolev

What's preventing you from getting stopping power? Are you simply not getting very much power for a given amount of hand squeeze, or are your levers bottoming out against the handlebars when you squeeze them? If the latter, you probably just need to tighten the brake cables.

What brake pads are you using? Some of the cheaper and older Shimano ones aren't so good... the new Shimano R55C4 pads are excellent, however. You could also try Kool Stop salmons.

Are the cables and housing in good shape?

Try cleaning the brake tracks of your rims?

What sort of brake levers do you have on the handlebars? If they're vintage levers for drop bars, you might find that modern levers would allow your hands to get better leverage.

Pics?

They'll brake just fine.

And there's no reason you can't tour on racing tires.

B. Carfree

Since the bulk of your braking power will come from the front brake, consider just making changes to the front end. You can have posts put on just the forks and then just have them primed for future painting.

When I had some frame work done at R+E in Seattle they primed the work for free. They also sell a fantastic cantilever brake they designed and manufacture that is intended for tandems but is awesome on touring bikes. Just doing the front brake posts and putting on a single Big Squeeze will set you back $200, plus shipping ($75 for the posts and $125 for the brake). I had this done on my wife's old (1984) Trek 720, also a 531 frame, and she's been super happy with it.

Brakes designed for tandem and cyclocross bicycles, also brakes for touring bikes and bicycles

3speed

There's no need for you to go crazy and spend money on major upgrades to your set-up. Those brakes on modern AL rims should stop you just fine. Something is set up wrong. As someone mentioned, the levers may be an issue if they're still the originals that came on the bike. I don't have any experience with older levers paired with modern dual pivot calipers to say for sure or not. I do know modern levers stop better and are more comfortable for long rides. In any case, I'd take it to a bike shop. I'm guessing it's something to do with cables/housing. Tire size has nothing to do with stopping ability on dry pavement.

bradtx

Kevin, You may have a mismatched lever/caliper cable pull ratio. I suggest a set of Shimano levers.

Brad

indyfabz

+1.

saddlesores

try to narrow down where your problem lies.
get the bike working WITHOUT carrying gear first.

adjust the brakes/levers to the best of your ability.

clean the rims.

how old are those brake pads? try a new set of
quality pads.

still no luck?

switch out a different set of wheels.

if you think the coupled brake cable is a factor,
replace with a solid cable.

good lucky!

djb

forgive me if I am wrong, but this sounds like you are not using the front brake hard enough.
If this is the case, this will significantly reduce your overall braking power.

I am not familiar with the brakes you put on your bike (a bike in which you have invested a lot of money into btw) but softer pads can and will make a real difference in braking power--but the caveat is if you are using the brakes properly, and hauling on the front brake hard enough.

you will not flip over on a touring bike with panniers on, and it doesnt happen instantaneously, but I am curious to hear some of your answers to the other enquiries, ie photo of bike, do levers get close to bars, etc etc.

djb

oh, and do be aware that on a frame that is not designed for disc brakes, the fork design and rear frame design makes it unable to change to discs.

serious suggestion, have your two friends ride your bike down a steep hill to see if your braking technique is the issue here. It will cost nothing and at least be a test that can be done with concrete results (more than unseen strangers on the internet).

Moose

My money is on the levers and calipers being mismatched, as has been suggested. Dual pivot calipers are typically quite effective, even long reach ones.

What kind of handlebars and levers do you have? If you are unsure how to confirm the compatibility, take it to a bike mechanic to have a look. It could be a simple matter of swapping the levers.

Don't go riding down any more big hills til you get this fixed!

saddlesores

replacement forks can be found cheaply on ebay.

djb

Yes, but then you get into all the specifics, important ones, of trail etc, that effect handling. Doable yes, but needs to be done right, costs also...

I figure he needs to get it ascertained if there is a problem with what he has, from either cross referencing with so done else riding the bike and or a good bike shop to see what's up.

Tourist in MSN

Someone above mentioned Koolstop Salmon pads, I would try that on the front wheel.

But first just in case you have anything that acts as a lubricant on the front rim, clean the front rim off with dish soap and water, then try the Salmon pads.

Doug64

It depends. My wife and I rode fully loaded across the country, plus several more long tours, on 28 mm Continental Ultra Gatorskins. There is nothing wrong with a 28 mm tire. We have pretty much switched to 32 mm tires now, but the 28s were fine.

There was a lot of construction going on that summer, and 28 mm tires worked well'



OP, you get more stopping efficiency from your front brakes. I don't know what the proportion it is compared to your rear brakes, but it is significant. Both front and rear brakes need to be working at max efficiency. Both front and rear brakes should be used together. The suggestion of KoolStop salmon pads is a good one. Also take some denatured alcohol, and wipe off the braking surface of your rims.

warek

Apologises for the delay in replying, I am in Australia. Thanks for all of the suggestions
My front brake is Shimano BR A550 and rear brake is Shimano BR R650 both with 57-47 mm arms. Not sure if rear is better as it is newer and if I would gain any benefit from swapping front and rear brakes. Brake levers are Shimano BL R400, non STI as I use friction downtube shifters
Cables seem ok, although the back one probably not as effective due to cable joiner as a result of SS couplers. I will remove cable joiner and replace rear brake cable as I rarely separate the frame.
Good idea about hard slows, but concerned about gaining even more speed and then not being able to stop/slow from 50-60 kmh instead of 40kmh
Brake levers are squeezed to about half when brakes pads are fully engaged. My front pads may need replacing. I have a few sets of Koolstop Salmon in my spare parts, and will replace both sets of pads
Pads are about 3-4 mm from rim when not being used
I am braking from the drops.
Rims have not had a lot of use and have a quality machined side wall and are in good condition but I will clean both rims. I have other sets of wheels that I will also try to elimate the wheelset as being part of the problem.
Attached pics of setup, but front wheel show in pics is not the one I use for touring, the normal one is the same rime as the rear one shown.
I am attracted to the idea of converting front brake to big squeeze cantilever as suggested by B Carfree

Have a great day
Cheers
Kevin

veganbikes

Here is what I would personally do on a set up like that:
Replace brake levers with SRAM S500 or TRP RRL or Cane Creek SCR-5 mainly for better ergonomics (I don't like shimano brake levers because of the point they come to)

Replace cables and housing with Jagwire Elite Link housing (it is light, compressionless and looks really cool) and replace handlebar tape (because you are already needing it)

Replace pads with Swissstop or Kool Stop

Clean the rims well with alcohol and maybe also smooth them out if they are rough (Hozan makes a rim polishing pad)

I would also make sure everything is set up well by a qualified mechanic.

This is however just what I would do, it is not the cheapest but the links are easily reusable (new inner housing is not super expensive and neither are decent cables) and the brake levers will last a while (unless you drop the bike on the lever then you might have to replace it as I did) so all in all not so bad especially if you are riding the bike a lot or have plans for a new bike.

I don't know who makes better longer reach brakes as I haven't needed them so that is why I wouldn't suggest those plus a good set of pads and better cables and housing will probably make the bigger difference.

I like the bike...it is the right color for a touring bike, Reynolds 531 is good tubing and a vintage campy headset is always swell.

Tourist in MSN

Another option would be to switch to mountain bike brake pads that are usually longer and have more surface area on the rim. But try the Salmon pads that you have first.

There is nothing wrong with a cable splitter on the rear cable, there is no need to get rid of it. It does not impair your braking at all.

When you load down a bike with camping gear, the brakes do not work as well as they do on an unladen bike. You mentioned that your friends had better braking than you had, but were their bikes loaded with the same amount of weight as yours?

52telecaster

dual pivot brakes like you have should give you tons of stopping power. cantilevers wouldnt be any better. maybe not as good. you've gotten good advice so far, i can only say i have toured heavily loaded with tektro dual pivots and tektro levers and had no problem stopping. i am guessing cables. housing and pads would help a lot and make sure the levers are not meant for v brakes.

alan s 

You really don’t provide a good picture of what’s going on up front. My guess is your front brake cable is binding or has extra friction somewhere, reducing front braking power. So you feel like you’re braking hard, but not all the lever force is making it to the calipers. Make sure the cable and housing are in good condition and there are no areas where the cable is binding. If the housing is old, replace it and make sure it is long enough. Also, the brake pads possibly need replacing. What’s up with the bar tape?

djb

some more thoughts on maximum hard braking--I was a kid and young teenager who rode around on my bike making downshifting noises etc as I loved motorsport (starting back or a bit before Alan Jones's time, dont know your age but look him up if this Aussie means nothing to you) and so I was always trying to stop in the absolute shortest distance on my bike. Me and my friends would try to do stoppies, lifting the rear wheel a bit while using only the front brake, and also just got used to shifting our body weight back as far as we could during full beans stops.

Basically all this goofing around taught us how to "feel" the brakes better, and to develop a better sense of timing and modulation of both front and back brakes on pavement and on dirt.

Not much later I got into motorcycles, same thing, always tried max braking, and then even did some paved circuit racing where I was a fairly good late braker.

all this blah blah is to bring up how I personally know many bicycle riders who just arent comfortable using teh front brake hard, feel that they will flip over in a nanosecond, but getting more comfortable hauling on the front brake and getting a feel for how much you can do for a given tire traction is super important, and this could be the issue here.

sure, it could be a bunch of other stuff, but do have another experienced rider try your bike down a hill and see how it is for them. Like I said before, its a free quick check on things, and then go from there.

another observation Ive had re friends bikes, with folks who ride their bikes in the rain, and never ever clean their bikes, or rims, or brake pads, the accumulated gunk and abrasive stuff can really deteriorate braking systems.
I always remember taking a friends bike out for a spin, and her front brake which was virtually identical to one of my bikes and which I brake very hard with very often, was markedly less powerful than mine. In this case, it was a combo of much harder compound brake pads (stock ones that came with bike) plus a pretty rough rim surface and embedded crap in her brake pads from never cleaning the bike, and the diff was night and day compared to my very similar bike and I noticed it right right away.

again , good luck getting this sorted. With emergency stops that happen once in a blue moon, the X metres you'll gain by figuring this out could very well be a few very important metres in your life....and emergencies aside, you'll be a lot more comfortable on your bike from what you describe now.
cheers