skookum

55 is kind of arbitrary. I would have said hipsters vs. retrogrouches.

Rob_E

I wouldn't be that surprised. I based my statement on the weight of my own gear and pointed out that you could move that needle by substituting heavier or lighter gear. You have a lighter rack than me, and have chosen to use for comparison the heavier of the two Anything Cages and inexplicably thrown in the weight of the Anything Bags (which, yes, are among the heavier options for use with the Anything Cages) while omitting the weight of the panniers. And still you find that 2 cages and 2 bags are the equal of one light weight rack. Of course we were talking about replacing a 4 pannier/2 rack setup, so there's a whole other rack we haven't figured in.

I understand the appeal of panniers. It's still my preference to use at least a rear rack and panniers in my set up. But if weight is your biggest concern, eliminating the racks will almost certainly drop your overall weight. Doesn't mean it will appeal to everyone. However I think you imagine things as more difficult than they are. I've used both setups, panniers are more versatile, but a bike packing setup isn't miserable by comparison. It just takes a little more forethought.

djb

Im pretty certain by memory that the fellow who did the aero test borrowed a powermeter to make sure that he put the same output all the time, ish.
And while I see that he is young and full of beans, and its pretty certain he puts out more power than I do "comfortably all day", sure less frontal area bags will have less effect, but at a certain point, the diff is probably pretty darn small at the average speeds that I ride at.

I also recall that his average speeds were generally faster than what Ive traditionally ridden at, even decades ago, so Im just slower, and so less aero effect of my panniers.

buuuuuuut, I certainly can appreciate every small advantage. I guess for my touring, it comes back to the ease of panniers, taking on and off bike, carrying panniers in a train station or whatever, and having more stuff that equals more comfort for me personally, so if Im a few kms per hour slower, and do less km per day than he would, thats ok, Im fine with that.

boomhauer

One little mentioned fact is that most bikepackers carry a backpack.
The appeal of bickpacking is great.
You don’t really need to carry much during the day BUT when I load up in the evening with beer, pringles, bag of salad, and cans of fruit cocktail (for breakfast) there doesn’t seem to be room on the bike for all that stuff. I must have some sort of backpack.

Happy Feet

Back pack you say...

My first hybrid bike pack system worked well on Vancouver Island and in the Rockies. I opted for a drybag packsack instead of a seatbag so that I could also use it for day hikes.



By taking off the backpack and front roll and leaving them in the tent I could trail ride like this.



This year I have an interest in trying some fast long distance road tours so I am planning on using this set up. Again, no seatbag as I feel I can get more in the Carradice while still keeping it in my wind shadow.





Meanwhile, in the garage is the beginnings of a $50 thrift shop gravel grinder project. 1990 Chromo KHS Montana Comp with Deore LX groupset. Bikes are fun! This old dog just uses what he wants and experiments with new products if they happen to catch his fancy. Sort of keeps one from becoming a retrogrouch I guess. It's rather myopic to think people in the past didn't know a thing or two or that people in the present can't improve upon something once in a while.

rossiny

Oh my word!!! This is all very technical🐒

Leebo

OK, taking a few pics doesn't burn up that much power. I take pictures for a living, I don't even tour with a camera. I also bring a small battery to recharge the phone if needed.

cyccommute 

The racks I chose were more or less what is commonly used. The EX (or similar Blackburn rack) is probably the most commonly used aluminum rack around. It's not particularly light nor is it particularly heavy. Frankly, I can't see how an aluminum rack would be much heavier.

As for the racks on my personal bikes, I have Airys on both now. I purposefully did not compare them to the Anything cage. It wouldn't be a fair comparison.

As for the Anything Cage, I didn't realized there were more then one version...I have little to no use for them and haven't kept up...but the "lighter cage" weighs only slightly less than the other cage (29g) so it's a wash. I included the bags because you have to have something to carry "anything" in the Anything cage.

The reasons that I left out the panniers is that they weigh just about what the other bags do so that's a wash.

You seem to have missed that I, too, have used both setups. I do find the bikepacking bags to be miserable by comparison but they are less miserable for their intended use than panniers are and far less miserable than a trailer. However, on a smooth road or even on a smooth packed railtrail, panniers are far superior...even for a light load.

Leebo

I too use a hybrid sort of style. Handlebar bag, frame bag, rear rack with small bags, one or two. Carry my water/heavy stuff down low. Either in the frame bottle holders, below the down tube or on the forks. Same idea as the low riders panniers. But less bulky and ease of movement in tight singletrack. No backpack for me, that's what the rear bags are for, extra space. I never remove my bags on my trips, people carry them around? Hmmm. Aero stuff? Not that much of a concern for me on the dirt. I found out the opposite to be good. I'm 6'4", had lots of bags, front and rear racks etc. I reached ( for the most part) terminal velocity. Sitting up strait on a one of those paved mt roads (sign says trucks test brakes) Topped out at 44 mph. Great for not over using the brakes. It's great that bikers have all kinds of options these days, from tires, to bags, to GPS and such. For me the bikepacking set ups rule, minimalist weight, less bulk than panniers and better handling on singletrack.

cyccommute 

Again what is being missed here is the statistics. You can't say that there is any kind of advantage when the difference is so small unless you have information to show that there is a difference. You nor I nor anyone else (other than the person doing the test) can't draw any conclusion based on that data. 3 seconds per lap may be significant or it may not. If his variance per lap is 3 seconds, there's no conclusion to be drawn. If his variance per lap is 1 second (which I rather doubt), then his conclusion is valid.

But what if the variance is 4 seconds or 5 seconds or 6 seconds? Without knowing, we have to "trust" him and that doesn't make for good science nor strong, valid conclusions. Considering that he didn't do the math to show the variance, he may not have even considered it. And, in the absence of that analysis, his presentation falls into the category of opinion, not science.

alan s 

Well, this is just your opinion, unless you have scientific data to back it up.

Rob_E

The original assertion that I did not agree with was that bikepackers carry more bags, and the extra bags offset the weight savings of not using a traditional pannier set-up. All the nitpicking aside, I just looked at my own gear and did some calculations. Used 500 grams for a rear rack and 360 for front, using your suggested rear rack and a commonly recommended front rack. Of course limiting the choices to aluminum racks definitely skews the results given that steel racks also seem popular among the 4-pannier crowd and are considerably heavier.

My conclusion was that in an evaluation of volume/weight, my most efficient piece of gear is my seat-post bag followed by my handlebar roll. My least efficient piece of gear was my set of front-roller classics, followed closely by my Anything Cage/bag combo.

I did a comparison of two set-ups I have used in the past: Two backroller classics on a rear rack vs the equivalent volume in a bikepacking set-up: seat bag + frame bag + handlebar roll + handlebar bag. The difference was about a pound in favor of the bikepacking set-up. Obviously you could make adjustments on either side of the equations. There are lots of lighter bags than Ortleibs, but then my bikepacking gear is also heavier than the norm.

Basically I'd say a bikepacking set-up is significantly lighter. Doesn't mean anyone has to use it. Does mean it's better than panniers for their intended purpose, but if you live by the mantra: lighter = better, then losing a couple of racks could certainly move you in the lighter direction.

I think what I missed was what you are expressing as absolutes are straight-up opinions, and opinions I don't share. I still prefer panniers when and where they are practical, but I wouldn't call them far superior. I have really only taken one trip with no rear rack at all, but that trip was around 400 miles long and involved no terrain that I couldn't have managed with panniers, and still if I had it to do over, I'd make no special effort to bring my rack and pannier set-up because the bikepacking gear was fine.

Yeah, I don't why you would do that. Maybe if you were credit card touring and had to bring your stuff into a hotel? But then if I'm credit card touring, I don't have all of that stuff on my bike. In fact, I did the GAP as a credit card tour last fall and used a handlebar roll to carry my clothes. It was the one piece of gear I had that could easily hold a trip's worth of clothes, plus it left the rear rack open for other items. Yes, I had to remove it from the handlebars every night and put it back on in the morning. Whole minutes may have been wasted! It's okay, though. I wasn't on the clock. If I'm camping, I try to make sure that the handlebar roll, seatpost bag, and fork cages (If I have them) don't hold things I'll want during the day.

alan s 

Let’s get back to the aero argument, guys. I was winning that one, but this weight weenie stuff is getting in the way.

Happy Feet

When I see the tourist in a tear drop helmet.. then I know they are serious about aero.

alan s 

I’m in favor of wind tunnel testing to settle this. Loser pays?

fietsbob

stardognine

I've never done the "full on" pannier thing yet, just use smallish panniers in the back. Plus a good sleeping bag, plus a large backpack. And I still have to get rid of a lot of crap, regularly, because I "think" I might need something else, down the road.
But I think I'm learning, so maybe eventually, I'll find a happy balance. 🤔😉
BTW, some of us need a good portable radio. Not just a walkman-type with headphones, but something that'll scare the bears away, if needed. 😁

djb

re aero, one thing that has always impressed me is how much of a sail my four panniers and rackpack create. On a lot of reasonable gradient downhills on my last two longer trips, where line of sight is good and pavement reasonably good too, I just let the bike go and its very rare that I can get up to 70kph, 45mph, and its clear that its the pannier drag keeping at those speeds and not going higher.
If there is a slight tailwind, I really notice the increase in speed for a given hill, and conversely, really notice how a headwind really limits the terminal velocity on a full panniered bike.

L134 

https://video.valleypbs.org/video/3003962805/

Not sure about “new” and didn’t see much that I couldn’t have done on my road bike with panniers so don’t really see that all the “new” gear turned the impossible into the possible. Certainly looks fun in any event.

Happy Feet

Like most things, could it be that much of the outlandish presumptionism is made by those who don't actually use them?

djb

that video--cue all the keywords for "this rapidly growing new sport" like "awesome, rad" and the tough guys doing it......kinda made me go blurck, especially the "epic" soundtrack.

I get it, having less stuff on your bike for going off road just makes sense, bike is easier to go thru stuff, lighter (maybe, probably) and I figure you end up with the same minimalist amount of stuff that lots of backpackers go with, the bike being lighter is way more fun on loose surfaces....I really do get it, buuuuuut one really does get the impression that this is a new bunch of stuff to sell, the new buzzword of a cool activity to do...Im being cynical of course, but with growing popularity, companies see that they can sell X, Y and Z stuff , so are very much into it and the promotion of it.

DropBarFan

I've been surprised by the overall wind resistance of 4 panniers+ too. Just don't know how bikepackers' knees don't bump into the frame bags.

L134 

I agree. I think it is what puts me off about the whole “bikepacking” thing. Guys pretending they are doing something new and exciting when people have been doing it for over 100 years. Just do it because you like it.

djb

I should be clear this made me think of marketing in general, it's always been the same. Think of how road bikes have always been marketed with the theme of racers and that story line, was the same when I was a teenager.

Bikepacking makes sense for less stuff and a narrower bike, although small rear panniers make sense to me too.

saddlesores

i have a tape measure and i'm not afraid to use it.

my 15L panniers with my standard load stick out 7" from the seatstays.
my platform pedals stick out from the downtube........ 6-3/4".

the lowest point of my 15L panniers has 16" ground clearance.
my pedals at bottom of rotation have 5" ground clearance.

in a headwind or no wind the rear panniers are in the shadow zone behind my handsome legs.
in this case a frame bag + seat bag should have no effect.

with a sidewind, panniers offer ~120 square inches of sail area.
with a sidewind, a custom framebag to fit 2/3 of the center triangle would have ~200 square inches, and a large enough seat bag to carry my stuff would add 90-100 more.

if i'm traveling in china, i'm staying in hotels. don't wanna carry a bike and gear
up 5 or 6 flights, so will leave the bike locked in the bike/scooter parking area
inside the lobby on first floor by reception.

saddlebags clip on/off fast, easy to carry with handles/shoulder straps.
bikapackin' bags more suitable for wild camping leaving the bags on the bike,
too much trouble to thread the straps every day.