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Adding a second wheelset...

Old 01-18-21, 01:33 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
As to a local building the wheelset. One guy quoted me $1000 CAD and I had to supply the hubs. arghh... I suspect they have never built a fat set before.
Well that's pretty steep. My LBS, which is fairly fatbike focused charges 50-100 for the actual build. So 100-200 for the wheelset plus components. So with their own hubs and pretty darn expensive race face rims the build would amount to 742 which translates to 1142cad. But that price does contain the work, hubs and seriously expensive rims (spokes also obviously).

With prices like the quote you got it almost pays to start a new hobby in wheelbuilding
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Old 01-18-21, 09:32 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
Yup, and some neat history too.

...ADDENDUM:

Ooops, I just realized I am talking to two Canadians and a Finn. The building above is the Lincoln Memorial, Lincoln was a famous president of USA over a century and a half ago.

Major bummer here, I do not have a photo of Province House in Charlottetown to show for you Canadians. I stayed three nights at a hostel three blocks away from Province House and would show a photo if I had one. I was there on Canada Day in 2019, it rained all day.
I thought Lincoln was a car

Although I am a Canuck, as a history buff I know far more about American history than our own, as it has shaped so much of world affairs. I know all the administrations from Roosevelt forward and the major doctrines they promoted, social/civil movements etc... and the civil war also has great appeal in the sense of wanting to see all the places I've read about.

I think it might be fair to say the west has the edge on natural history and the east has the edge on social history. I'm nerdy enough to enjoy both.

Oh, and I'll probably do White Rim alone. No one else I know likes cycle touring and I am loath to plan big trips with strangers. If a company had a good deal for gear hauling or stashing water I might take advantage of it. There are some good shops in Moab that are pretty friendly that way. I plan to go in the first two weeks of Nov when the crowds are gone but the days still have some warmth.
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Old 01-19-21, 05:33 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
...
I think it might be fair to say the west has the edge on natural history and the east has the edge on social history. I'm nerdy enough to enjoy both.

Oh, and I'll probably do White Rim alone. No one else I know likes cycle touring and I am loath to plan big trips with strangers. If a company had a good deal for gear hauling or stashing water I might take advantage of it. There are some good shops in Moab that are pretty friendly that way. I plan to go in the first two weeks of Nov when the crowds are gone but the days still have some warmth.
Natural history, pretty much agree. I am a geological engineer by training, but I am retired, thus have had decades to forget much of my college geological training. But, still remember some of the basics of mountain building episodes, igneous, metamorphic, sedimentary rock types and which you find in most places on the continent, where glaciation had a role in present day land forms, etc., etc. And can't disagree, as a place to visit or explore nature, the west has a lot ot offer.

Social history is written by the winners of conflicts, and the east has a much longer history in the initial immigration and settlement from Europe. I grew up in Minnesota, so some of my early education included a little bit of Canadian history too, as the Great Lakes were part of early transportation network, early exploration included the beaver trapping era, Hudson Bay Company role in expansion to the west, etc. But, I did not know much about Canadian government history and confederation history until I was in Charlottetown on Canada Day weekend. And I was only there because I saw a long stretch of rain in the forecast and decided to stay indoors at a hostel, Charlottetown had a convenient hostel.

White Rim, there are only a few campsites, you can only camp at official campsites. And you need a permit to camp there. So, if you wanted to do it solo, you would be getting a permit early. And, there is no source of water there. Before I went, I read a few Crazy Guy on a Bike posts by others, if you are not there with an outfitter, water will be your big headache. I read of people renting a vehicle and placing water caches ahead of a trip and later finding that animals or other people got into their water caches. Outfitters have a very dim view of people doing the trip on their own and begging for water from outfitters, the outfitters do not see their role as bailing out those that were ill prepared when they have paying clients to tend to.

When we were planning a group trip for ten of us friends, we initially were talking about renting a 4X4 to haul food, luggage and water, and we ended hiring an outfitter to haul our stuff, etc. And we saw that as a great decision on our part. Outfitter even provided collapsible chairs.

If I was going to go back, i would automatically plan on using the outfitter.

But, if I was going to try it solo, I would be hauling enough water that I would probably pull a trailer, and it would have to have a wider tire, I do not remember the brand but there is a trailer that uses a full size bike wheel and uses pannier mounts. And I would read up on how Australians tour their outback, as they have experience in hauling water. Besides Crazy Guy trip logs, there are articles in Adventure Cycling by people that traveled dry areas.

If you get a second wheel set, maybe that trailer (I do not recall brand) that uses a full size bike wheel is also sold as a trailer without a wheel? If so, you could provide your own.

Good luck on your White Rim trip. A few photos from mine:







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Old 01-22-21, 04:14 PM
  #29  
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Did a little more work on the bike this morning, adding and subtracting parts.

Gone are the fenders, for the moment. If I replace them I'll go for some full coverage ones.



The WTB 650b 42mm Resolutes have just enough clearance on the sides of the fork. The rear dropouts are about the same. I took it for a ride last weekend on some muddy trails and felt pretty confident with the traction and cornering.



The cockpit for the moment.
I don't usually use my phone for navigation or strava stuff but do use google maps at times and I hate having to stop and fish it out of my jersey or HB bag to answer calls etc...

One thing I didn't think about when adding a second wheel set was the computer. At the minimum I will need a second magnet but may also need a second computer as the wheel circumference is slightly different. The VDO clicks off the mount so I could just get a second one, swapping for each wheel set. They are pretty cheap ($25) but still, a little issue not considered.

For reference: 700c x 32mm = 2155mm. 650b x 42mm = 2100mm.



The cockpit from the side.
I cut the top crossbar off my aerobars to make two units, spreading them out a bit more. This is as low an angle as I can go atm without interfering with the HB bag lid. I'll need another test ride to see if they are comfortable at that angle.



As mentioned earlier, an adjustable angle stem would drop the HB bag lower but my steerer tube is cut so short already that I can't add two full sized stems to it. I bought a cheap used angled stem ($5) and took the hacksaw to it to reduce the stack height enough to fit the steerer below the HB stem. It's pretty thick tubing so I'm not worried about it bending. If I find an even steeper angled stem I'll do the same thing and drop the HB bag lower, allowing the areobars to become more horizontal.



And that's where I stand now. Next up will be fenders and/or two 180mm rotors and the adaptor for the front disc brake.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 01-22-21 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 01-22-21, 05:18 PM
  #30  
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My VDO computers (over a decade old, do not recall model) have a way to put in a second wheel size for second bike. And they sold second bike kits with bracket and magnet. The theory was you could use one computer on two bikes.

If you know any really good experienced mechanics, ask them if there is any danger of your hacksaw job putting uneven pressure on the headset bearings if your cut was not perfectly perpendicular to the headset. And, is it a problem or not?

If you can put a thin feeler gauge in between stem and headset anywhere, that suggests a high spot that could be filed down.

Other than that, I think that was a brilliant idea. The bar bag is not very heavy, so the remaining part of your stem should be more than adequate.
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Old 01-22-21, 06:38 PM
  #31  
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ya, I was going to mention the sometimes dual bike thing on some bike computers. I have or had one that could do it but never used the dual function, something like a "A" and "B" setup in teh menu.
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Old 01-22-21, 07:55 PM
  #32  
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Well, you guys got me to thinking so I looked up some units online. I like the VDO line so I see the 4.1 has a 2 bike function. And, no dealer in Canada as MEC has stopped carrying the product line. I've put an email into the maker so if they will ship, I will buy

An elegant solution.

Also, interesting about the bearing. I cut that stem pretty even and it rotates smoothly so I think it will work out but another thing to think about when doing this.
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Old 01-22-21, 08:24 PM
  #33  
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A question for the math crowd, of which I am admittedly not a member in good standing...

What would the difference in distance measurement be between a 2155mm and 2100mm wheel? Is it enough to worry about or would the measure for one be ballpark accurate enough for the other?

Turns out O have a second Cat Eye Strada cadence computer in my parts bin.
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Old 01-23-21, 07:05 AM
  #34  
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Hmmmm, first you take one number and key it into a calculator, ... ...

The difference is about 2.6 percent. Is that enough to worry about or not, your call. If one wheel is always right the other wheel would be 2.6 percent off.

I personally would want better accuracy than that for distance.

But, for speed that is close enough for me. A lot of my computers that I have used over the years rounded off to the nearest half MPH, I suspect for you they would round off to nearest half km/hr. At 19 km/hr, if it is off by 2.6 percent it would read almost exactly a half km/hr off, either 19.5 or 18.5. I would not notice that kind of error for speed.

When touring, I use both a computer (one that is over a decade old) and a GPS. I mostly use my computer for cadence or speed measurements. I almost always have my GPS screen on the map with no other data. But I toggle to my GPS data screen for distance measurements, both distance traveled that day and distance to destination. And sometimes estimated time to destination. My GPS does not have a pressure sensor in it, so I usually disregard any elevation related data in my GPS as inaccurate, but I have it configured to show elevation.

Sometimes my wireless VDO computers have added extra distance for no reason that I can figure out. So, I am less likely to look at their distance data, that is part of the reason I am more likely to look at my GPS for distance data. My older Sports Instruments (defunct company) wired computers were always spot on for distance but they lack cadence data.

When in a country that uses km instead of miles, I re-configure my GPS and computer to use the local units, I want my electronics to match the units on the road signs.

Or maybe plan B. If you configured your computer to the mid-point between the two wheel sizes, then both wheels would have a 1.3 percent error, one reads high the other reads low. At a 1.3 percent error, that becomes almost insignificant, I could live with that much error for both distance and speed.

Last edited by Tourist in MSN; 01-23-21 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 01-23-21, 10:56 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
Hmmmm, first you take one number and key it into a calculator, ... ...

The difference is about 2.6 percent. Is that enough to worry about or not, your call. If one wheel is always right the other wheel would be 2.6 percent off.

I personally would want better accuracy than that for distance.

But, for speed that is close enough for me. A lot of my computers that I have used over the years rounded off to the nearest half MPH, I suspect for you they would round off to nearest half km/hr. At 19 km/hr, if it is off by 2.6 percent it would read almost exactly a half km/hr off, either 19.5 or 18.5. I would not notice that kind of error for speed.

When touring, I use both a computer (one that is over a decade old) and a GPS. I mostly use my computer for cadence or speed measurements. I almost always have my GPS screen on the map with no other data. But I toggle to my GPS data screen for distance measurements, both distance traveled that day and distance to destination. And sometimes estimated time to destination. My GPS does not have a pressure sensor in it, so I usually disregard any elevation related data in my GPS as inaccurate, but I have it configured to show elevation.

Sometimes my wireless VDO computers have added extra distance for no reason that I can figure out. So, I am less likely to look at their distance data, that is part of the reason I am more likely to look at my GPS for distance data. My older Sports Instruments (defunct company) wired computers were always spot on for distance but they lack cadence data.

When in a country that uses km instead of miles, I re-configure my GPS and computer to use the local units, I want my electronics to match the units on the road signs.

Or maybe plan B. If you configured your computer to the mid-point between the two wheel sizes, then both wheels would have a 1.3 percent error, one reads high the other reads low. At a 1.3 percent error, that becomes almost insignificant, I could live with that much error for both distance and speed.
Funny, that's the plan I've decided on. I posted this same question in the road cycling sub forum and someone suggested it. That idea gives a variance of 1.3 which seems acceptable. As I said there, the way I use a computer for touring around here is pretty basic and I only need to know distances for navigation within km's not meters.

FWIW, this is the maths I came up with
One revolution is 2100mm = 210cm's.
1km = 100000cm's.
100000/210 = 476 revolutions.
27.5mm = 2.7cm's deviation per revolution.
476 revolutions x 2.75cm's = 1285cm's
1285cm's = 12.85m

So... if my thinking is correct, I would have a discrepancy of 12.85 metres for every 1 km travelled.
or.. 12.85 meters x 100km's = 1.285 km's per 100 km's traveled.

If that is correct, would it also stand to reason that if I were travelling at 25km's per hour I would have a speed discrepancy of .32 km's per hour?
1.285 meters per 100km's / 4 = .32.
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Old 01-23-21, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
...
FWIW, this is the maths I came up with
One revolution is 2100mm = 210cm's.
1km = 100000cm's.
100000/210 = 476 revolutions.
27.5mm = 2.7cm's deviation per revolution.
476 revolutions x 2.75cm's = 1285cm's
1285cm's = 12.85m

So... if my thinking is correct, I would have a discrepancy of 12.85 metres for every 1 km travelled.
or.. 12.85 meters x 100km's = 1.285 km's per 100 km's traveled.

If that is correct, would it also stand to reason that if I were travelling at 25km's per hour I would have a speed discrepancy of .32 km's per hour?
1.285 meters per 100km's / 4 = .32.
My math was simpler, I divided 2155 by 2100 and subtracted 1:

2155 / 2100 - 1 = 0.026 or 2.6%

and then if you pick the mid point and allocate half that 2.6 percent error to each option, that is 1.3 percent error for each wheel choice. So, use 2127 or 2128 for your computer setting, mid point between 2100 and 2155.

Or you could use logarithms, ....
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Old 01-23-21, 12:33 PM
  #37  
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close enough for jazz I reckon, and what I would do, being the lazy son of a gun that I am.
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Old 01-23-21, 06:30 PM
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I gave my brain a break and took the bike out for another trip instead.
This time I drove an hour west to a place called Finns Slough by the ocean. From there I rode to Terra Nova Park and back again on mixed pavement and gravel, stopping at the Historic fishing town of Steveston for fries and a coffee. I added the saddle bag this time because it's quite cold out and I wanted to take a down jacket just in case.
Much better than math

Finns Slough









Waterside trails










Steveston





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