Adding a second wheelset...
 

For about a year now I have been contemplating adding a second wheel set to my 700c Norco Valence Endurance bike, the bike I use for lighter road touring/long distance rides.
https://www.norco.com/bike-archives/...alence-tiagra/

As part of a plan to reduce my fleet I want to have two touring bikes that span all the conditions I might consider touring. Road - gravel - bikepacking - remote/off road. To do this I figured two bikes, with two wheel sets would do. As well as two bikes, I use the same set of bags, adjusted for needs modular style, for both bikes. This build is part A of the plan.

This is my bike with the 700c wheel set. I've retrofitted the 11-32 cassette to an 11-36 for better climbing. I usually use either 28 or 32mm Gatorskins for flat protection or more recently 28mm GP 5000's, which are pretty fast.

Light
http://i.imgur.com/wvTGSb9l.jpg

Loaded
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...b5430de8_b.jpg

So, I finally bought a set of 650b rims (Evo Touring) and fitted them with a similar 11-36 cassette. At first I tried a set of 48mm tires but they just didn't clear the fork or stays so I ordered a pair of WTB Resolute 42mm. They fit with mm's to spare and I took it out for a test ride today. A little slower than before but still fast on pavement. The Resolute has a small knob pattern that allows good traction and is different enough from my road tread to not be redundant. These tires look about as wide as my other 26x1.75 tires.

http://i.imgur.com/fe02Y68l.jpg

Because both wheelsets are disc brake there was no problem swapping diameters and the indexing for each cassette remained intact. Swapping out the wheel sets takes all of two minutes and is no hassle as everything aligns properly. The BB clearance going from 700c to 650b needs to be considered and 48mm 650b would have been ideal, but 42mm is still not bad. This bike has a high BB regardless as it is a 60.5 frame.

Now I can begin fine tuning things.
The fenders are a temporary clip on style that I add and take off depending, but I think I will add a more permanent set - maybe, still debating. Yep, the rear one looks goofy.
I'm also using a second stem for my HB bag and want to find a more downward angled one to drop the bag more, so my aero bars can be put back on.
Lastly, I recently learned about adding larger rotors by fitting an adapter. These are 160's but I may bump both front wheel sets up to 180.

http://i.imgur.com/bjxjJ2kl.jpg

FWIW, my second touring bike is a Specialized Fatboy with 26x4.6 tires. To this I plan to add a second set of 29x3" wheels which keeps the BB at the same height. Also, for that set, a suspension fork.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...3cdd1c98_b.jpg

For your application, I think an adjustable stem for the handlebar might work best to lower it.

At this posting, the first photo is my second stem using an adjustable stem, the second photo is with a 35 degree stem.
https://www.bikeforums.net/19930025-post28.html

In all cases I try to keep the bar bag as close to the steering axis as practical to minimize steering impairment.

do you think its worth going the suspension fork route?
and how is it for hub spacing differences on the fat bike, I thought they had super wide spacings front and rear--so no problem getting 29" wheelsets that fit properly?
I'm pretty ignorant of fat bike stuff.

After seeing Djb comment on suspension fork, I looked at the photo again. I do not think you will find a suspension fork that holds a 29X3 wheel that keeps your bike geometry right. If you do go for a suspension fork, it would probably have to be a very short travel fork. Not a 100mm fork.

The fat bike is more problematic because one has to get a custom wheelset made with fat hubs to convert to 29r. No off the shelf sets available.

There is a guy in Colorado who does it a lot, and my plan was to order a set and pick up when I go to Moab next. Was set for this Nov just past until covid struck.

They make sus forks for fat bikes (bluto, mastedon) but I may explore a 29r fork that suits the geometry if possible. This would allow me to then use a stock 29r rim instead of a custom one. 29x3 = 26x4.6 for BB height.

Mostly this would be for mtbing so some geometry change might be acceptable. Even though the fat tires absorb some shock I cring a bit when hammering the rigid front end because I don't want to bend a rim.

Looking back, if I could do it all over again I would probably bought a 29x3" bike for this purpose, like the Surly ECR. The spacing of fat bikes is problematic, especially when considering repairs somewhere off the grid. I think, if I were to do an extended trip, I might have a second wheelset or at least hubs ready to go for shipping.

Then again, I bought the fat bike specifically because I want to explore places like the Great Sand Hills in Saskatchewan where my 26" bike could not make any headway.

you could always blow a big wad of cash and get one of those pretty darn snazzy Lauf fatbike forks!

and your comment about the whole plus size popularity does show why it seems to be a good compromise for a lot of riding, other than sand and snow where the true fatties will always have an advantage.

:) At this stage of life, I'm not that guy. I still have a mortgage and stuff so I don't tend to blow large loads of cash unless I really really know I'll use it. The Lauf will have to wait...

Plus I have some other expensive hobbies as well as other sub genres in cycling. I'm slowly upgrading my mtb bike, road bike, other road bike, FG bike, vintage bikes etc...

I think of this idea as a sort of "proof of concept" trial so that, when I do have the disposable income, I'll know pretty well what I want. I could get better rims, and even a better bike, but for now we'll see if these additions add up to something meaningful.

The Plus vs Fat thing is interesting. One thing I did not anticipate with fat was the proprietary nature of the hub spacing. It really makes cross pollination a pita and, if the maker goes under, you are stuck with a bike that has an odd size. That's why I want to baby my rims when mtbing. Yet, as you say, fat does fill a niche.

Here's a couple of pics of the Sand Hills that I want to return to.

This was literally a road plowed through the sand. I couldn't go very far on it without sloughing.

https://live.staticflickr.com/1899/4...a75c8864_b.jpg


These dunes are interspersed among large expanses of scrub that have animal trails connecting them. Most people just go to the one or two dunes closest to the road but the area is hundreds of sq kilometers.
https://live.staticflickr.com/1872/4...9f017d5e_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/1852/4...ec199ee6_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/1895/4...4c1fb278_b.jpg

The Manitou Mastodon Pro version is an incredibly nice fork. The damper part is great with adjustable fast and slow shock absorbers and rebound adjuster. The air spring also has pretty nifty adjustment in the IVA and you can get the infinitely adjustable IRT for maximum controllability.

If you want a shorter axle to crown you can choose the STD model but that won't fit the largest tires. The EXT fits all current fatbike tires but has longer axle to crown.

You really may want to consider the mastodon over a 29er suspension fork. It's more fork than most will ever need.

I suppose I am that guy. But I still do not have a pure mountain bike. And I have decided I do not need one. My Nomad (my heavy duty touring Rohloff) bike, the frame came with a solid fork but the frame was designed to also take a suspension fork.

A friend of mine several years ago organized a ride for several of us on White Rim Trail in Canyonlands. The guys that did not own mountain bikes rented. I could have done that but I was really curious how well my Nomad would work. Watched Ebay and got lucky to pick up a lower budget Rockshox fork for it. Also put a low budget suspension seatpost. The bike worked better than I expected. Everyone else in the group had full suspension bikes, so there were times that the lack of rear suspension slowed me down. Later took the same bike to North Dakota for the badlands. Photo is in Canyonlands. A bit hard to see it but I am using drop bars on it.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a862ced194.jpg


About a decade ago, Thorn made a mountain bike frame for a Rohloff hub. Someone put one of those on Ebay recently. I thought about it, I could have finished building it up into a complete bike for not very much if I borrowed my wheels off of my Nomad. (I can't ride two bikes at once.) But, eventually decided that if I bought it, it would not get enough use to make it worth it, so I did not bid. But I could have fitted my suspension fork to that and have a nice hard tail.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Thorn-Raven...-/293796235600

I recall on White Rim there were a couple times that my front tire dug into loose sand and one of those times came to a sudden halt. Had to walk the bike through maybe a hundred yards (or meters) of beach sand.

That beach sand in Sand Hills must be a real chore to go through if you do not have a fat bike. I think my 57mm wide tires would have a tough time in it.

Funny, the White Rim Trail is the next trip I plan to do in Utah. I could see parts of it from Dead Horse Point. I flew in last time to SLC and rented a minivan and bike (slept in the van) but next time I plan to drive there and take a couple of bikes and my SUP to float the Colorado from Dewey. White Rim, road biking the National parks, some mtbing.

I think, if I had an extra 2K kicking around, I might do the Sand Hills, then sell the fat bike, and buy the 29r Surly ECR as a more flexible platform overall to invest in; others like the Krampus or Ogre but I like the 29x3 ability of the ECR. Most of the time I think 3" would be fat enough and it can also run 2.5 for normal mtb on stock wheels. That would make one burly bikepacking rig.

Fat is fun but the hub sizing really is a pita.

You are going to have a great time on White Rim.

Are you using an outfitter guided trip or on your own?

We hired a local outfitter to drive our luggage and food and water for us in a 4X4 heavy duty truck. But we did the permitting, scheduling, etc. So we did it for maybe half the cost of a guided trip through a commercial outfitter. There were 10 of us.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6965075a5c.jpg

happy, I know that 2017 and newer Trolls had a frame redo and can take up to 3in tires. My wifes is a 2017 and they rejigged the area near the bb to widen it.
The whole rim width thing though may come into play in terms of how narrow you'd ever want to go, and I imagine the ECR comes with wider rims as is.

The trips that you and Tourist have done, or want to do, seem like a million miles away from out here in the east. They do look pretty darn cool though.

Yes!!

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1fe01c4c89.jpg
BobG on White Rim Trail 1991 ^

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a8ff34d356.jpg
Shafer Trail access ^

The view from above.

http://i.imgur.com/mOFKs7Hh.jpg

There's a little squiggle of a line down there.

http://i.imgur.com/yjeiYmRh.jpg

Looking down on the trail that lets you look further down on the canyon. Scale!

http://i.imgur.com/qCIivmch.jpg

Pretty darn tooting awesome.
I'm envious.

Well.. to be fair. You guys out east have access to some better developed rail trails and historic towns to tour around. I'm sometimes envious of tours that can see a lot of history or sites with a moderate amount of riding.

Ya, the grass is always greener ain't it?
I've just been busy with work, helping w with aging parents and its been a long year, one without a good adventure due to covid, so it's neat to see some cool big landscapes to ride through....

Typically I'd suggest to DIY the second wheelset on any bike but with a fatbike I will admit that it's a bit of a pita. Especially if you don't have experience with wheelbuilding. I'm right now considering whether I should let my local wheelbuilder build me a new set of touring wheels or get a new truing stand with thru axle compatability. It'd be a lot cheaper to let the wheelbuilder build the wheels initially, but in the long run I'd save money.

Yup, and some neat history too.

But right now I think this entire area is closed to visitors. This was at the end of my GAP and C&O trip several years ago.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ad0a0b0323.jpg


I do not own a wheel truing stand, use the bike frame or fork as my wheel stand. I use the brake blocks on rim brakes to check it for straightness, several times will pull out the wheel and turn it around to get the dishing right. If you lack rim brakes, I have heard some people put a zip tie on a stay or fork blade to use as their gauge to check rim straightness.

ADDENDUM:

Ooops, I just realized I am talking to two Canadians and a Finn. The building above is the Lincoln Memorial, Lincoln was a famous president of USA over a century and a half ago.

Major bummer here, I do not have a photo of Province House in Charlottetown to show for you Canadians. I stayed three nights at a hostel three blocks away from Province House and would show a photo if I had one. I was there on Canada Day in 2019, it rained all day.

Nice areas to ride in! ..yikes..

I have about $15 in this one..easy build from scraps laying around.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e07d76939b.jpg

I've tried to true wheels on the dropouts of a bike but never built one. All my wheelbuilds are stand builds.
While you can build a wheel on the bike I feel the ergonimics, speed and precision you get with a proper truing stand has so far more than made up for the expense of the stand. Especially when you have eight bikes to true or build wheels for. And there's going to be even more wheels added when the little demon graduates from the trailer to actual bikes.
I have a simple park stand that wasn't all that expensive when I bough it. Now however I'm considering on getting the Park Tool TS-4.2 and that's pretty expensive. But that'll true all the wheels.

Then again the most important tool of all is the tension meter, which I should really calibrate at some point.

Anyway. My point is that if wheel building isn't one's hobby, then it's not a bad idea to pay someone to build fatbike wheels instead of doing it yourself.

Tourist- Lincoln? Isn't that some sort of old man american luxury car? Never heard of the other guy.
Fishboat, maybe from scraps, but even I can recognize the nice job you did, nicely beveled edges and all, grain looking good from stain varnish etc.

Elcrux, I've asked before, but you aren't Finnish are you? Your command of the English language is very impressive if you are. Anyway, given that you have a munchkin getting close to getting to his or her own two wheeler shows that you're a good 20 years younger from us old farts.

That's pretty well where I'm at. I've never really felt the need to build wheelsets because I've usually been able to easily find what I want. I know how to true of course.
But the fat bike sizing is the pita that may have broken the camels back. Even specialized Canada, the maker of my bike, doesn't list the stock wheelset for it.

Down the road I may choose to DIY but a problem our American friends might not experience is the lack of vendors and high cost/difficulty with shipping to other countries. Sometimes it works out, sometimes there is a big cost and sometimes the US vendor won't ship. Comparatively speaking, we live in the pre industrial era :) Even our own shops can't get it together.

(rant) I set out to get the tires mentioned above before Christmas. The local shop website said they had them in stock, so I went there but they did not actually have them. "In warehouse, allow 10-14 days shipping". Ok, I was there, so I ordered them, at a premium price. 21 days later I had to go back to the shop (1.5hr round trip) because they wouldn't ship to my address, only to the shop. Crazy. I wanted to support a local LBS but I could have bought them from Chain Reaction for less and had them delivered to my door in 4 days. (rant over)

As to a local building the wheelset. One guy quoted me $1000 CAD and I had to supply the hubs. arghh... I suspect they have never built a fat set before.

I found one more old print of the Shafer Trail. Here are the switchbacks up high in the canyon on the way down to the White Rim Trail. If you look closely you can see my riding partner at the red arrow ahead of me on the descent. Yes, we were on a day trip and had to climb back up that afternoon! Click on the video at this link for a ride down!

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...361be7028c.jpg

I worked in a bike shop in the 70s. Trued hundreds of wheels, but only the head mechanic and a couple others that had worked with him for years built wheels at the shop. No training for the rest of us on the mystical arts of wheel building. Later, I built a couple for my own use, that was pre-internet and I did a sloppy job on them. Then the internet came along. Then in 2004 I decided to build up a new bike, and building my own wheels looked like a good idea. I found Sheldon Browns tutorial which was excellent, and have built up about a dozen since. It probably takes an extra quarter to a half hour to do that without a truing stand per wheel, but when you do two wheels at a time, a truing stand is a pretty low priority.

One bike, I asked a friend of mine that donates time to a bike charity to check spoke tension since he had access to a gauge. When I had that set of wheels spot on, I just made sure that the spokes on my other wheels felt about the same tightness.

I will be building up one more wheel in a month or two, the internet parts seller is waiting for one backordered part before they ship my order. That is a front wheel and undished, easy to true that up in the fork of an upside down bike.

But, fat bikes, I don't go there. i stay between 25mm and 57mm for my tire widths.

Well that's pretty steep. My LBS, which is fairly fatbike focused charges 50-100 € for the actual build. So 100-200 € for the wheelset plus components. So with their own hubs and pretty darn expensive race face rims the build would amount to 742 € which translates to 1142cad. But that price does contain the work, hubs and seriously expensive rims (spokes also obviously).

With prices like the quote you got it almost pays to start a new hobby in wheelbuilding

:D I thought Lincoln was a car

Although I am a Canuck, as a history buff I know far more about American history than our own, as it has shaped so much of world affairs. I know all the administrations from Roosevelt forward and the major doctrines they promoted, social/civil movements etc... and the civil war also has great appeal in the sense of wanting to see all the places I've read about.

I think it might be fair to say the west has the edge on natural history and the east has the edge on social history. I'm nerdy enough to enjoy both.

Oh, and I'll probably do White Rim alone. No one else I know likes cycle touring and I am loath to plan big trips with strangers. If a company had a good deal for gear hauling or stashing water I might take advantage of it. There are some good shops in Moab that are pretty friendly that way. I plan to go in the first two weeks of Nov when the crowds are gone but the days still have some warmth.

Natural history, pretty much agree. I am a geological engineer by training, but I am retired, thus have had decades to forget much of my college geological training. But, still remember some of the basics of mountain building episodes, igneous, metamorphic, sedimentary rock types and which you find in most places on the continent, where glaciation had a role in present day land forms, etc., etc. And can't disagree, as a place to visit or explore nature, the west has a lot ot offer.

Social history is written by the winners of conflicts, and the east has a much longer history in the initial immigration and settlement from Europe. I grew up in Minnesota, so some of my early education included a little bit of Canadian history too, as the Great Lakes were part of early transportation network, early exploration included the beaver trapping era, Hudson Bay Company role in expansion to the west, etc. But, I did not know much about Canadian government history and confederation history until I was in Charlottetown on Canada Day weekend. And I was only there because I saw a long stretch of rain in the forecast and decided to stay indoors at a hostel, Charlottetown had a convenient hostel.

White Rim, there are only a few campsites, you can only camp at official campsites. And you need a permit to camp there. So, if you wanted to do it solo, you would be getting a permit early. And, there is no source of water there. Before I went, I read a few Crazy Guy on a Bike posts by others, if you are not there with an outfitter, water will be your big headache. I read of people renting a vehicle and placing water caches ahead of a trip and later finding that animals or other people got into their water caches. Outfitters have a very dim view of people doing the trip on their own and begging for water from outfitters, the outfitters do not see their role as bailing out those that were ill prepared when they have paying clients to tend to.

When we were planning a group trip for ten of us friends, we initially were talking about renting a 4X4 to haul food, luggage and water, and we ended hiring an outfitter to haul our stuff, etc. And we saw that as a great decision on our part. Outfitter even provided collapsible chairs.

If I was going to go back, i would automatically plan on using the outfitter.

But, if I was going to try it solo, I would be hauling enough water that I would probably pull a trailer, and it would have to have a wider tire, I do not remember the brand but there is a trailer that uses a full size bike wheel and uses pannier mounts. And I would read up on how Australians tour their outback, as they have experience in hauling water. Besides Crazy Guy trip logs, there are articles in Adventure Cycling by people that traveled dry areas.

If you get a second wheel set, maybe that trailer (I do not recall brand) that uses a full size bike wheel is also sold as a trailer without a wheel? If so, you could provide your own.

Good luck on your White Rim trip. A few photos from mine:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f6209d2a65.jpg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5604386df6.jpg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...13533d098f.jpg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b0b334a2f1.jpg

Did a little more work on the bike this morning, adding and subtracting parts.

Gone are the fenders, for the moment. If I replace them I'll go for some full coverage ones.

http://i.imgur.com/EunACjwl.jpg

The WTB 650b 42mm Resolutes have just enough clearance on the sides of the fork. The rear dropouts are about the same. I took it for a ride last weekend on some muddy trails and felt pretty confident with the traction and cornering.

http://i.imgur.com/42M5YnHl.jpg

The cockpit for the moment.
I don't usually use my phone for navigation or strava stuff but do use google maps at times and I hate having to stop and fish it out of my jersey or HB bag to answer calls etc...

One thing I didn't think about when adding a second wheel set was the computer. At the minimum I will need a second magnet but may also need a second computer as the wheel circumference is slightly different. The VDO clicks off the mount so I could just get a second one, swapping for each wheel set. They are pretty cheap ($25) but still, a little issue not considered.

For reference: 700c x 32mm = 2155mm. 650b x 42mm = 2100mm.

http://i.imgur.com/bZFvLIFl.jpg

The cockpit from the side.
I cut the top crossbar off my aerobars to make two units, spreading them out a bit more. This is as low an angle as I can go atm without interfering with the HB bag lid. I'll need another test ride to see if they are comfortable at that angle.

http://i.imgur.com/gCybU5Kl.jpg

As mentioned earlier, an adjustable angle stem would drop the HB bag lower but my steerer tube is cut so short already that I can't add two full sized stems to it. I bought a cheap used angled stem ($5) and took the hacksaw to it to reduce the stack height enough to fit the steerer below the HB stem. It's pretty thick tubing so I'm not worried about it bending. If I find an even steeper angled stem I'll do the same thing and drop the HB bag lower, allowing the areobars to become more horizontal.

http://i.imgur.com/38hnbRul.jpg

And that's where I stand now. Next up will be fenders and/or two 180mm rotors and the adaptor for the front disc brake.

My VDO computers (over a decade old, do not recall model) have a way to put in a second wheel size for second bike. And they sold second bike kits with bracket and magnet. The theory was you could use one computer on two bikes.

If you know any really good experienced mechanics, ask them if there is any danger of your hacksaw job putting uneven pressure on the headset bearings if your cut was not perfectly perpendicular to the headset. And, is it a problem or not?

If you can put a thin feeler gauge in between stem and headset anywhere, that suggests a high spot that could be filed down.

Other than that, I think that was a brilliant idea. The bar bag is not very heavy, so the remaining part of your stem should be more than adequate.