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Old 03-03-21, 06:25 PM
  #26  
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As we touch upon this subject again, may I ask if anyone has dropped the large coin on the White Industries variable square crank and chainrings?

MR30VBC ? White Industries

With this system you can have a double crankset With an outer gear that ranges from 38-52 in even tooth increments and an inner that ranges from 24-38 in even tooth increments ? In doing my math, I could replace my triple 46-36-24 with a double 42-24, 11 speed cassette, 11-34 or 11-36 and give up almost nothing. Same low or lower and only giving up one unit on the high end which rarely gets used. I would spend 90% of my time in the 42 ring anyway with the 24 being more of a bail out on steeper climbs. 103" to 18" or 19" gear inches without too big steps in between. Hmmmm
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Old 03-03-21, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by robow View Post
As we touch upon this subject again, may I ask if anyone has dropped the large coin on the White Industries variable square crank and chainrings?

MR30VBC ? White Industries

With this system you can have a double crankset With an outer gear that ranges from 38-52 in even tooth increments and an inner that ranges from 24-38 in even tooth increments ? In doing my math, I could replace my triple 46-36-24 with a double 42-24, 11 speed cassette, 11-34 or 11-36 and give up almost nothing. Same low or lower and only giving up one unit on the high end which rarely gets used. I would spend 90% of my time in the 42 ring anyway with the 24 being more of a bail out on steeper climbs. 103" to 18" or 19" gear inches without too big steps in between. Hmmmm
Your definition of “big steps in between” and mine are vastly different. Gear-calculator gives this comparison. The 42/24 crank has fairly good steps from 106 gear inches to 32”. It has fairly good steps from 60” to 18”. The giant hole in the middle is troubling, however. Changing from the 42 to the 24 is a gigantic step. That’s the problem I’ve always had with compact doubles and the wide range doubles are even larger jumps. The transition in a triple is much smaller and less jarring.
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Old 03-03-21, 07:45 PM
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I don't spend much time at all jumping between my middle and larger ring. I simply stay in my 46 until I need lower than my cross chaining will allow ( I know, I'm a very bad boy) and then drop into my middle ring for a couple lower combinations and if I need lower yet, then I drop it into my little ring for those last couple of combinations which I hope will allow me to not to have to walk my bike (not that there is anything wrong with that ; ) So for me, it would be very normal. My derailleurs can handle a 16 tooth difference, I'm thinking an 18 difference would be no big deal. I don't mind making two shifts simultaneously but I understand your point of view and others tha would rather not.
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Old 03-03-21, 07:51 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by robow View Post
As we touch upon this subject again, may I ask if anyone has dropped the large coin on the White Industries variable square crank and chainrings?

MR30VBC ? White Industries

With this system you can have a double crankset With an outer gear that ranges from 38-52 in even tooth increments and an inner that ranges from 24-38 in even tooth increments ? In doing my math, I could replace my triple 46-36-24 with a double 42-24, 11 speed cassette, 11-34 or 11-36 and give up almost nothing. Same low or lower and only giving up one unit on the high end which rarely gets used. I would spend 90% of my time in the 42 ring anyway with the 24 being more of a bail out on steeper climbs. 103" to 18" or 19" gear inches without too big steps in between. Hmmmm
I am clueless on the crank you referenced, but in post number 8 above I show two bikes that have triple cranks that are 46/42/24 (half step plus granny). The 46 and 24 are aftermarket rings I put on, the cranks initially were 52/42/30. My point is you could easily buy a road triple that has a 42 middle ring, swap out the 30 for a 24. And put a bash guard on the outer position instead of a big ring.

The cranks pictured in post number 8 above are both Campy, but you probably would not want campy because they are ISO taper instead of JIS, thus you won't find a wide choice of spindle lengths for bottom bracket to adjust chainline. But I am assuming that there are other road triples out there that have a 42 middle ring and a 74mm five arm BCD that would work.

I turned a 52T chainring into a bash guard with a saber saw, a big file, and some patience. A 52 would be a bit larger than you want as a bash guard, but would not look too bad.

Or, I have no idea if Spa would ship to USA or not. I do not recall if I ever bought from them before. They do not have the exact chainrings you want as a set, you would likey have to buy a 24T ring.
https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m8b0s109...h-Zicral-Rings
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Old 03-03-21, 08:32 PM
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MSN, I looked at this before and couldn't find a triple with BCD 4 or 5 bolt pattern that would allow for 24t and 42t rings and be more acceptable for a 10 speed drive train ( I understand there is some leeway here). Would love to hear of a combo that someone could come up with. Btw, I don't have your artistic ability in transforming that large ring into such an attractive bash guard
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Old 03-03-21, 10:04 PM
  #31  
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I'm experimenting with a 42/28 and 11-34 on the current rig, I do have a 26t chainring I can substitute but I'm not certain right now I need to. Last tourer I had with a triple was a 32/30 for the low so this is a bit of a drop but I anticipate bigger climbs while carrying less weight.

Also not much of a groupset.
RS405 hydraulic sti levers
4700 rear der
GRX front der
XT 10sp casette
XT 10 sp chain
Sram XO carbon crank- was the only one I could find with the gearing I wanted and at 150.00 each they were worth the cost.
Chris King BB
XT hubset
So not much of a groupset but all bought for budget, XT cassette was 15.00 less then the tiagra and saved 80g. XT hubs are a favorite and were clearance for 60.00 a set. XT chains were 15.00 each.

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Old 03-04-21, 08:13 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by gauvins View Post

1. 1x drivetrains (personally not attracted to, because of the very large steps, but 1x are becoming more affordable and, from what I read, the new standard for MTB.) For instance, I read yesterday that 12-speed chains were of a much better quality than 10 and even 11 (twice as many kms before "stretching" more than 0.5%), which raises the spectre of future improvements focusing mostly on this standard. And if considering a 1x, is there any reason to prefer a derailleur system (Shimano or SRAM) vs a Rohloff? Anyone knows if it is possible to customise a 12-speed cassette (ex: instead of 10,12,14,16,18,21,24,28,32,36,42,50 -> 14,15,16,17,18,21,24,28,32,36,42,50)
I suspect that you are one of the very, very rare people who do the "custom" cassette thing. I have thought of doing it in the past, but just never got around to it. Isn't the problem that it depends on how the cassette is built, with loose cogs, whereas some cassettes have very limited loose ones and a bigger main body with permanently attached cogs? Also, isnt it necessary to be able to find the special first cog that takes the lockring into it? I mean, could this be a real technical block for trying to start a cassette with a 13 or 14 when it is designed for the lockring to only work on a 10t?
Also, even if you could do a 14-15-16 etc cassette, wouldnt the smaller chainrings of a 1x or 2x end up with a really small top gear?

anyway, just thinking out loud here.
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Old 03-04-21, 08:51 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by robow View Post
As we touch upon this subject again, may I ask if anyone has dropped the large coin on the White Industries variable square crank and chainrings?

MR30VBC ? White Industries

With this system you can have a double crankset With an outer gear that ranges from 38-52 in even tooth increments and an inner that ranges from 24-38 in even tooth increments ? In doing my math, I could replace my triple 46-36-24 with a double 42-24, 11 speed cassette, 11-34 or 11-36 and give up almost nothing. Same low or lower and only giving up one unit on the high end which rarely gets used. I would spend 90% of my time in the 42 ring anyway with the 24 being more of a bail out on steeper climbs. 103" to 18" or 19" gear inches without too big steps in between. Hmmmm
Hmm, a little bit less expensive than the Rene Herse cranks:
Rene Herse Double Crank – Rene Herse Cycles

But as cheap as I am, I'll probably just stick with a triple.
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Old 03-04-21, 09:04 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
isnt it necessary to be able to find the special first cog that takes the lockring into it? I mean, could this be a real technical block for trying to start a cassette with a 13 or 14 when it is designed for the lockring to only work on a 10t?
Also, even if you could do a 14-15-16 etc cassette, wouldnt the smaller chainrings of a 1x or 2x end up with a really small top gear?
Well, Miche Primato is compatible with Shimano, so it is just a matter of swapping sprockets. You can purchase a complete cassette or the specific sprockets that you want to replace. So in my case I've started from a Shimano 11-34 and swapped the 11-13-15-17 for Miche's 15-16-17-18. You are right when you say that is reduces the top gear inch (from 113 down to 83), but I was (almost) never using anything above 100 and was always shocked by the huge gap between the 2 smallest sprockets (i.e. shifting from 13 down to 11 is a ridiculous 18% step.). OTOH 15-16-17-18-19-21 (etc) results in better scaling of gear inches (i.e. 5% steps) making it much easier to keep a steady cadence over undulating terrain. I spin out in the mid 30kms, plenty fast for me . You may want to take a look at the gear profile

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Old 03-04-21, 01:38 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by robow View Post
... Btw, I don't have your artistic ability in transforming that large ring into such an attractive bash guard
I later sprayed the bashguard black so it blended in better. But this is what my former 52T chainring that was turned into a bashguard looked like before I painted it. This is on my Rohloff bike, so there is only one chainring (44T), but it is a double crank.



I used a saber saw to cut off the teeth. Used one or two blades that were pretty much destroyed because the aluminum clogged up the teeth of the blade(s). This was about six or seven years ago so do not recall details too much. After the saber sawing, put the bashguard on the crank and turned the crank by hand for maybe 10 or 15 minutes while holding the file on it to file it down smooth. Turning a crank for 10 or 15 minutes is pretty boring, but it would have taken much longer to figure out a different way to smooth it down. Do that BEFORE putting a chain on it, the chain has some lube and the little bits of metal that the file cut off would stick to the chain (don't ask).
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Old 03-04-21, 01:49 PM
  #36  
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Found one more good reason to get a 3X system instead of a 2X or 1X.

While out for an exercise ride today, broke a rear shift cable. First time I have broken a shift cable in decades.



Turned one of the limit screws on the rear derailleur to put the chain on the third smallest sprocket instead of the smallest sprocket. And pedaled home on my three speed bike.

A three speed beats a two speed and that beats a single speed bike in my opinion, but had to walk up one hill.

ADDENDUM ADDED NEXT DAY:

I thought that I had only installed stainless cables, but inspecting the broken cable, it appears to be galvanized.



On a different bike I replaced a bar end shifter cable that had several broken strands about 9 years ago, that also appeared to be galvanized. It had not yet failed but was getting close.

At home looking at my spare cables, I had several galvanized cables that were not labeled as galvanized, but they sure looked nice and shiny and were a more expensive cable labeled "slick". I could only tell they were galvanized from the part numbers on the packaging and checking the manufacturer catalog. From these two experiences, I think that bar end shifters where your sweaty hands are close to the cable, you should make sure you only use stainless cables.

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Old 03-05-21, 07:26 PM
  #37  
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Just to muddy the waters, have you considered a Pinion geared bottom bracket? It gives a 600%+ range and 18 separate, unduplicated gears. Then you can also get involved in a lot of arm waving about the strength of an undished rear wheel, maintenance, and the vulnerability of RDs to getting snagged.
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Old 03-06-21, 05:29 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
Just to muddy the waters, have you considered a Pinion geared bottom bracket? It gives a 600%+ range and 18 separate, unduplicated gears. Then you can also get involved in a lot of arm waving about the strength of an undished rear wheel, maintenance, and the vulnerability of RDs to getting snagged.
I can't speak for others, but I must say that the wider range and 18 speeds does look compelling. That range is wider than my 14 speed Rohloff. My derailleur touring bikes with triples (3X8 gearing) have 18 effective gears after you subtract the cross chained gears, thus the Pinion offers something comparable to my derailleur systems.

But in my opinion the small choice of frames that are specific to the pinion system is a deterrent. Compare that to a Rohloff that can be used on almost any bike if you use a suitable means of dealing with the hub torque. (That said, my Rohloff bike frame was designed specifically to be used with the Rohloff and not a derailleur.)

One advantage I see to a Rohloff over a Pinion is that I use a 44T chainring when riding around near home, there my bike never has more than a pannier of groceries and my gym bag. But when I take that bike on a bike tour, I remove 4 links and change the chainring to 36T for lower gearing for heavy loads on steep hills. Changing the gearing like that on a Pinion bike would be more troublesome.

And of cour$e, we are excluding the i$$ue of co$t$ in thi$ di$cu$$ion.
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Old 03-06-21, 10:25 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
And of cour$e, we are excluding the i$$ue of co$t$ in thi$ di$cu$$ion.
As well as ignoring the 800 lb...um... “gorilla” in the room.
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Old 03-06-21, 12:07 PM
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Frame choice isa good point. I doubt if Pinion would even sell to an independent frame builder.
One thing I forgot to mention, I find I shift much more often with Pinion set up than I do on my derailleur bike.
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Old 03-06-21, 12:15 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
One thing I forgot to mention, I find I shift much more often with Pinion set up than I do on my derailleur bike.
I'm curious, why? I certainly remember noticing this big time when I first got trigger shifter and sti shifters after dt shifters, but dt really have a noticeable "will I take the time to reach down again for the millionth time to shift" thing going on.
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Old 03-06-21, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
Frame choice isa good point. I doubt if Pinion would even sell to an independent frame builder.
One thing I forgot to mention, I find I shift much more often with Pinion set up than I do on my derailleur bike.
I consider Co-Motion to be an independent frame builder, but they obviously are a larger scale than most. But they sell some Pinion bikes.

I shift my Rohloff bike a bit more than a derailleur bike, I suspect that Pinion and Rohloff would be about the same for shifting. I mostly notice it when stopping at a red light. I stop, if on my Rohloff I down shift to 7 or 8, derailleur bike I obviously do not shift while stopped and start out in too high a gear. Rohloff bike, when I start I pedal about three or four crank revolutions, upshift, pedal about four or five crank revolutions, up shift again, and a bit further will likely upshift one more time.

An off the wall question for you, do pinion bikes only come as belt or is a chain system available to? Just curious. When I tour on my Rohloff bike, I carry a few spare chain links, but not a full chain. I met a couple in Iceland where both had Rohloffs, one had a belt and one a chain. They said they carried a spare belt because you could not buy one in the entire country. But a chain, no big deal.
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Old 03-06-21, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
I'm curious, why? I certainly remember noticing this big time when I first got trigger shifter and sti shifters after dt shifters, but dt really have a noticeable "will I take the time to reach down again for the millionth time to shift" thing going on.
Answering for Rohloff, not Pinion here, but I suspect they are the same.

Quite often I do not shift while slowing for a stop at a red light because I was braking with both hands. Thus, no shift on a derailleur bike. Rohloff, that can be shifted after I stopped.

For me, a rear derailleur shift takes a bit of time when going slow, you have to keep pedaling but at a much lower torque level while you wait for the chain to wrap half way around the cassette to complete the shift. Yeah, that is less than a second, but it is noticeable.

And derailleur bike, front shift, same as rear in that you have to wait for the crank to go a half revolution before you can pedal hard again. I often pedal half a revolution before my chain has started to catch on the other chainring.

Sometimes I just say, I think I will stay in this gear a bit longer instead.

I shift my Rohloff by slowing my pedaling for just a tiny fraction of a second. Some people keep pedaling, but you have to reduce torque when you shift. On an uphill there have been a few times where I tried to shift my Rohloff just as my crank is at that point in the pedal stroke where your torque is lowest,but that takes some mind and hand coordination with feet, which is not always successful.

And of course it has a sequential shifter, you do not have to think about coordinating two shifters.
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Old 03-06-21, 03:29 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
Frame choice isa good point. I doubt if Pinion would even sell to an independent frame builder.
One thing I forgot to mention, I find I shift much more often with Pinion set up than I do on my derailleur bike.
Here is a small independent frame builder near Toronto that has a license to make Pinion fitted bikes - True North Cycles
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Old 03-06-21, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug64 View Post
I posted this in another thread, but it may be applicable here. I believe a maximum 12 tooth difference is recommended for 9 speed triple cranks.
i know we are talking gearing, but can I ask what rack that is?
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Old 03-06-21, 10:33 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by jpjuggler View Post
i know we are talking gearing, but can I ask what rack that is?
If you are talking about the bike in post 9, the rear rack is Tubus Cargo. I’m not sure whether it’s an Classic or Evo. The front rack is a Tubus Tara.
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