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Udh insight

Old 11-26-23, 03:50 PM
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Udh insight

I am curious if any of the bike industry folks on the forum know if there’s much likelihood of significantly more bike brands adopting the universal derailleur hanger (udh) standard in 2024, or if its momentum has stalled. I’m looking for n+1 and want it to be “future-proof” with udh but having a hard time finding 2023 one which suits bike’s eventual purpose.
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Old 11-26-23, 06:40 PM
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It will probably hit other brands but if you are looking for touring bikes you probably want to go with a custom built frame to get UDH on it if that is super important.
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Old 11-26-23, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Jno
I am curious if any of the bike industry folks on the forum know if there’s much likelihood of significantly more bike brands adopting the universal derailleur hanger (udh) standard in 2024, or if its momentum has stalled. I’m looking for n+1 and want it to be “future-proof” with udh but having a hard time finding 2023 one which suits bike’s eventual purpose.
Maybe a touring bike will adopt udh soon, but generally speaking touring bikes aren't the place within a brand's lineup where innovation lies.

WAG- Bombtrack will be the first to mass produce a touring bike with udh.
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Old 11-26-23, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Maybe a touring bike will adopt udh soon, but generally speaking touring bikes aren't the place within a brand's lineup where innovation lies.
That may be the greatest understatement in the 4.5 billion years of earth’s history! There are luddites who view touring bikes as too conservative in design. There are Amish people who think that bicycle tourists are too backwards in terms of innovation. Touring cyclists heads explode if you suggest anything other than steel frames. I can’t imagine what they would do if you suggested a universal derailer hanger. They would probably burst into a plasma and disperse into the universe.
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Old 11-27-23, 12:10 AM
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My cynical take on the UDH is that 12=speed derailleurs (and their conventional hangers) are too fragile, so the "industry" (SRAM) unilaterally decided on a bandaid fix, rather than backtrack to more sensible, robust 11 or 10 speed gearing.

Seeing as 11-speed gearing on a touring bike is considered by most to be too fragile and radically innovative, I think it is safe to say you won't see UDH on touring frames until 12-speed becomes the norm, which means not in our lifetimes.
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Old 11-27-23, 05:48 AM
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More a gravel bike but the Salsa Journeyer appears to have a UDH set up. I’m contemplating one for a do a bike to tour rail trails set up 3X. During Covid I got a used Trek 1000c frame and it just won’t do.

I’d see UDH migrate to aluminum frames and do all bikes before dedicated touring bikes. Nice to have a universal derailleur hanger.
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Old 11-27-23, 06:05 AM
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This is the first I have heard of UDH.

If Ford, GM and Toyota could make sure that all air in car tires was purchased from them, they would. I see no reason for frame manufacturers to want to make it easier for frame owners to go elsewhere for replacement hangers. I ordered a $40 replacement hanger for my Lynskey when I purchased the frame six years ago, it would be nice if a replacement hanger came free with each bike frame.

I might never use my spare hanger, but I am glad I have it. When I received it, I was surprised that it had a big hole drilled in the middle of it, they wanted to make sure it was more fragile for a shorter lifespan. The photo on their website at that time did not have the hole.
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Old 11-27-23, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark
My cynical take on the UDH is that 12=speed derailleurs (and their conventional hangers) are too fragile, so the "industry" (SRAM) unilaterally decided on a bandaid fix, rather than backtrack to more sensible, robust 11 or 10 speed gearing.

Seeing as 11-speed gearing on a touring bike is considered by most to be too fragile and radically innovative, I think it is safe to say you won't see UDH on touring frames until 12-speed becomes the norm, which means not in our lifetimes.
I tour on a 12 speed.

​​​​​12 speed chains are now down to around $20, and the cassettes are about $80. That's cheap enough for me to no longer care about replacement cost. I'm spending more than that on a single hotel night while touring.
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Old 11-27-23, 08:13 AM
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I'd tour on a UDH equipped bike today. There are gravel bikes that are UDG equipped. You might not choose them for real heavy touring, but I bet some are very suitable for moderately light touring. They certainly would be suitable for UL touring.
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Old 11-27-23, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
That may be the greatest understatement in the 4.5 billion years of earth’s history! There are luddites who view touring bikes as too conservative in design. There are Amish people who think that bicycle tourists are too backwards in terms of innovation. Touring cyclists heads explode if you suggest anything other than steel frames. I can’t imagine what they would do if you suggested a universal derailer hanger. They would probably burst into a plasma and disperse into the universe.
Yet Surly, one of the retro grouch paradise brands came put with the new Disc Trucker in 2020 and it had some crucial pieces of new fangled tech, like thru axles, flat mount brakes, brifters, and a sloped top tube. That didn't really cause a big uproar. In fact it seemed like people were really digging the changes. I know I am.

There's a lot of old people in the touring crowd. Old people often like things they liked in their youth. Goes in bike touring, goes in music.
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Old 11-27-23, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Yan
I tour on a 12 speed.

​​​​​12 speed chains are now down to around $20, and the cassettes are about $80. That's cheap enough for me to no longer care about replacement cost. I'm spending more than that on a single hotel night while touring.
It is the fragility of the derailleurs that worries me a bit. I have 11-speed and hydraulic discs, which always seems to get a reaction from people.
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Old 11-27-23, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark
It is the fragility of the derailleurs that worries me a bit. I have 11-speed and hydraulic discs, which always seems to get a reaction from people.
I am quite content with my 1990s vintage XT (M739) derailleurs.
https://velobase.com/ViewComponent.a...d-aa0790bd6be7

But, I have fitted them with newer ball bearing jockey wheels so that I do not have to regularly remove, clean and re-grease the pulleys.

One of the ones I have was bought at a swap meet. It shifted quite poorly, realized the cage was badly bent, re-bent it in a vice and it works great.
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Old 11-27-23, 12:18 PM
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DeFAILeurs still in 2024?? LOL hahahahahaha

Last week I saw videos of a young Dutch guy doing a world tour, now in Pakistan. He now has a 2 spoke chunk of flange broke loose. LOL.
Somehow he still rode it 500 miles to Lahore. But has found NO new matching hub. So much for the fixable anywhere nonsense.
On top of that he hadn't lubed his pedals at all and so they were seizing and finally crapped out.
The locals installed new pedals but they cross threaded it I think. Episode preview showed them trying to rethread. LOL.
Reminds me of LOST in SPACE. LOL. DANGER Will Robinson.

Last edited by GamblerGORD53; 11-27-23 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 11-27-23, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
If Ford, GM and Toyota could make sure that all air in car tires was purchased from them, they would.
I doubt bicycle companies make any profit selling hangers (they may even lose money selling hangers). Especially, since they don't sell many of them. It's somewhat likely that they save money by having a standard.

A standard would make manufacturing cheaper too. For something that isn't a "marketing differentiator".

Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I see no reason for frame manufacturers to want to make it easier for frame owners to go elsewhere for replacement hangers.
They don't need to make it easier. Other sources already exist (and have for a while already). There are a few after market hanger manufacturers, which appear to be where most people are going to buy hangers from. (These companies would be affected by a widely-used standard.)

https://wheelsmfg.com/derailleur-han...facturers.html (I've bought a few from Wheels.)
https://derailleurhanger.com/

Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I ordered a $40 replacement hanger for my Lynskey when I purchased the frame six years ago, it would be nice if a replacement hanger came free with each bike frame.
What percentage of people ever need a replacement hanger? Including a hanger with every bike would cost more and provide no benefit for most purchasers.

=================

It seems to be targeting mountain bikes.

https://www.universalderailleurhanger.com/

Last edited by njkayaker; 11-27-23 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 11-27-23, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
What percentage of people ever need a replacement hanger? Including a hanger with every bike would cost more and provide no benefit for most purchasers.
A decent number of people and having an extra one come with the frame would cost a little more but not much. I have seen the need for plenty of replacement hangers over the years and even if we had actual specifics on numbers having an extra one isn't going to be a big deal. I like having a spare and even if I don't need it maybe that could be the reason. Having spares generally has meant I have fewer issues with those parts I have extras for.

The concept of a UDH would be neat but it would take a lot to get everyone to adopt it immediately and we would still need hangers for the older bikes.
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Old 11-27-23, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53
DeFAILeurs still in 2024?? LOL hahahahahaha

Last week I saw videos of a young Dutch guy doing a world tour, now in Pakistan. He now has a 2 spoke chunk of flange broke loose. LOL.
Somehow he still rode it 500 miles to Lahore. But has found NO new matching hub. So much for the fixable anywhere nonsense.
On top of that he hadn't lubed his pedals at all and so they were seizing and finally crapped out.
The locals installed new pedals but they cross threaded it I think. Episode preview showed them trying to rethread. LOL.
Reminds me of LOST in SPACE. LOL. DANGER Will Robinson.
As for space, post up a pic of your touring bike. The one with a bunch of garage fabricated body plating that makes it look like something out of Start Wars.





ETA- removed a term that would be viewed as insulting.

Last edited by mstateglfr; 11-27-23 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 11-27-23, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
I doubt bicycle companies make any profit selling hangers (they may even lose money selling hangers). Especially, since they don't sell many of them. It's somewhat likely that they save money by having a standard.

A standard would make manufacturing cheaper too. For something that isn't a "marketing differentiator".


They don't need to make it easier. Other sources already exist (and have for a while already). There are a few after market hanger manufacturers, which appear to be where most people are going to buy hangers from. (These companies would be affected by a widely-used standard.)

https://wheelsmfg.com/derailleur-han...facturers.html (I've bought a few from Wheels.)
https://derailleurhanger.com/


What percentage of people ever need a replacement hanger? Including a hanger with every bike would cost more and provide no benefit for most purchasers.

=================

It seems to be targeting mountain bikes.

https://www.universalderailleurhanger.com/
You have your opinions, I have mine.

I did an ACA tour in 2018, about a dozen riders. And everyone came to me (another rider) for their mechanical issues because I had worked in a bike shop. But I disappointed three people that had bent hangers, because I refused to try to fix their bad shifting because breaking a hanger would have meant that their bike was done for the week long trip. If one of them had a spare hanger for their frame, I would have installed it for them.

I have also seen broken hangers on bikes in campsites where bikers are stranded until they can get a replacement in the mail. I only had to see a couple broken hangers that I started to carry one of these in my spares bag.
https://www.alltricks.com/F-185014-p...ailleur_hanger
But with newer bikes being through axle, that one probably will not work on newer bikes. Looks like this one is no longer made, probably for that reason.
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Old 11-27-23, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53
DeFAILeurs still in 2024?? LOL hahahahahaha

Last week I saw videos of a young Dutch guy doing a world tour, now in Pakistan. He now has a 2 spoke chunk of flange broke loose. LOL.
Somehow he still rode it 500 miles to Lahore. But has found NO new matching hub. So much for the fixable anywhere nonsense.
On top of that he hadn't lubed his pedals at all and so they were seizing and finally crapped out.
The locals installed new pedals but they cross threaded it I think. Episode preview showed them trying to rethread. LOL.
Reminds me of LOST in SPACE. LOL. DANGER Will Robinson.
We all know that you like to brag that you own a Rohloff hub. I have one too, but I also use my derailleur fitted bikes for some tours and for a lot of other riding near home. There are advantages and disadvantages to both an IGH and for a derailleur. For one thing, my derailleur fitted bikes have wider gear range and weigh less than a Rohloff hub on a bike.
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Old 11-27-23, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I did an ACA tour in 2018, about a dozen riders. And everyone came to me (another rider) for their mechanical issues because I had worked in a bike shop. But I disappointed three people that had bent hangers, because I refused to try to fix their bad shifting because breaking a hanger would have meant that their bike was done for the week long trip.
So, from this anecdote, it's 25%. The number of tourers who need hangers is probably much higher than overall.

If they didn't understand why you declined to fix their bikes, it seems likely they wouldn't have any idea what the weird extra part they got was for or remember to have brought it.

Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
If one of them had a spare hanger for their frame, I would have installed it for them.
They could have bought a spare hanger.

Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I have also seen broken hangers on bikes in campsites where bikers are stranded until they can get a replacement in the mail. I only had to see a couple broken hangers that I started to carry one of these in my spares bag.
I didn't say hangers never get bent. Nor was I saying it's not a good idea for tourers (especially) to carry an extra one.

I was saying that, overall (not just tourers), it's still likely a small percentage of cyclists. Nothing you said manages to indicate what I said isn't the case.

Anyway, it's still not likely there is any sort of weird conspiracy of manufacturers making significant "profits" by making different hangers or selling them as parts later.

Last edited by njkayaker; 11-27-23 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 11-27-23, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by veganbikes
A decent number of people and having an extra one come with the frame would cost a little more but not much. I have seen the need for plenty of replacement hangers over the years and even if we had actual specifics on numbers having an extra one isn't going to be a big deal. I like having a spare and even if I don't need it maybe that could be the reason. Having spares generally has meant I have fewer issues with those parts I have extras for.
I suspect you aren't an example of the typical bicycle rider.

It still seems that, overall, the need for hangers is small. Nothing you have said here indicates otherwise.

Many people would likely lose the extra hanger they got. Many people would have no idea what the part was for. So, there would still have to be an option to purchase them.

Manufacturers would still see saving "a little more" as an opportunity. Especially, for a thing that doesn't do much to help to market the bike.

Originally Posted by veganbikes
The concept of a UDH would be neat but it would take a lot to get everyone to adopt it immediately and we would still need hangers for the older bikes.
This is obvious, isn't it?

Last edited by njkayaker; 11-27-23 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 11-27-23, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
But with newer bikes being through axle, that one probably will not work on newer bikes. Looks like this one is no longer made, probably for that reason.
The market for these was likely always small.

Here's another option (still available, it seems):
https://problemsolversbike.com/produ...ailleur-hanger

And another one (more like what you have):
https://www.amazon.com/Origin8-PART-.../dp/B0063W752A
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Old 11-27-23, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Jno
I am curious if any of the bike industry folks on the forum know if there’s much likelihood of significantly more bike brands adopting the universal derailleur hanger (udh) standard in 2024, or if its momentum has stalled. I’m looking for n+1 and want it to be “future-proof” with udh but having a hard time finding 2023 one which suits bike’s eventual purpose.
SRAM started selling it in 2019.

https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/workshop/sram-udh/
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Old 11-27-23, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
I suspect you aren't an example of the typical bicycle rider.

It still seems that, overall, the need for hangers is small. Nothing you have said here indicates otherwise.

Many people would likely lose the extra hanger they got. Many people would have no idea what the part was for. So, there would still have to be an option to purchase them.

Manufacturers would still see saving "a little more" as an opportunity. Especially, for a thing that doesn't do much to help to market the bike.


This is obvious, isn't it?
Replacing derailleur hangers for people at my job has nothing to do with me as a "bike rider" though it is excellent you cannot understand that. I guess I could have been a little more clear on that but I sense you aren't good at understanding things sometimes.

Yes it is possible someone might lose a hanger but having an extra is not a bad idea. You are probably not the average person who would appreciate nice things. Having a hanger and not having to search for it later is quite nice. Having to help people find hangers over the past decade I would much rather have situations where that could be lessened.

Yes it was obvious you got it, good job, your medal is in the mail!
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Old 11-27-23, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
But I disappointed three people that had bent hangers, because I refused to try to fix their bad shifting because breaking a hanger would have meant that their bike was done for the week long trip. If one of them had a spare hanger for their frame, I would have installed it for them.
Three bent hangers out of a dozen riders! That is hard to fathom. I am an old timer and have ridden hundreds of thousands of miles some on and some off the road and have never replaced a hanger, I have straightened a couple, but it was a rare occurance. That said my on my one bike that has UDH I do find it a nice setup. I always figured it was designed for optomised shifting as much as for universal hanger replacement, but maybe I am wrong.
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Old 11-27-23, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by veganbikes
Replacing derailleur hangers for people at my job has nothing to do with me as a "bike rider" though it is excellent you cannot understand that. I guess I could have been a little more clear on that but I sense you aren't good at understanding things sometimes.
You are the one having the problem understanding.

It's not you "as a bike rider". It's whatever you are not being an example of "typical bike riders". If your job is fixing bikes, you are even less of an example of the typical bike rider.

Replacing hangers at your job is no indication of how frequent people need to have hangers replaced.

Again, it seems very likely that only a small fraction of riders ever need to replace hangers. It would be a waste to give extra hangers out to everybody.

Originally Posted by veganbikes
Yes it is possible someone might lose a hanger but having an extra is not a bad idea. You are probably not the average person who would appreciate nice things. Having a hanger and not having to search for it later is quite nice. Having to help people find hangers over the past decade I would much rather have situations where that could be lessened.
More stuff you aren't understanding. Straw man. I didn't say it was a bad idea to have an extra. What I said that for most riders, they will never have the need for an extra one (because they only bend them rarely). Whatever you'd "much rather have" doesn't make it worth while for manufacturers to spend many thousands of dollars including hangers that most people will never use.

Last edited by njkayaker; 11-27-23 at 06:54 PM.
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