NoReg

The Porteur is a wonderful looking bike. And the 650 size doesn't bother me at all in the main, but for touring bikes I'm even a little sceptical of the supply of 700c touring supplies. I've had problems, and I am exploring 26" wheel dedicated touring designs I'm sure the market prefers 700c generally.

The great thing about the LHT was that it was a cheap forced build-out experience, people have really bonded over the great design and sharing their build-out solutions. Probably it's a good next step for Surly to go to a complete bike, and I wish them well with it, they continue to bring out neat new stuff also, but I think the The LHT vibe might die with this decision. There might be less people doing the builds. LHT framesets are going to be "that frame on the $1000 bike". Surly is telling us what the bike is really worth, so who is going to throw Phil hubs on it now?

We also now know what happens when a Surly frame gets really popular, Surly fires suppliers that have made the market at the early adopter end, like Spicer, and trashes the resale value of everyone else's ride, by pumping out $1000 packages. I'm not criticizing their direction, but as a rider one reason I wanted to get a Surly last year, though I couldn't in time, was because I figured it would be an easy resale. That's a pretty cool feature in a touring bike where a lot of people do a big tour and then sell.

So Matt what we need is a new touring frame with real touring presence and features, and maybe a little vintage feel and beauty like the Porteur. Fork selection would be nice. And it can start all over again.

Kogswell

I'm gonna talk about ISO tires sizes because that's how I think. So here's my little size guide:

622 - 700c
590 - 650a
584 - 650b
559 - mountain bike, balloon tire

What you're saying is that early mountain bikes were based on the 559 balloon tire. Yep, that's true. What I'm saying is that in the early stages of development, only one good rim and one good tire existed: the Araya 7X rim and the Specialized Ground Control tire. Sure, there were steel rims and balloon tires available, but the quality not good. When Specialized introduced the Araya rim and their light tire, things got a lot better for 559s.

So 559 was an established size, but you wouldn't have ridden on what was available.

The Velocity Synergy and the Sun CR-18 are both available. Rigida makes a rim as well.

Not a lot of choices, but they range from superb to affordable.

In fact, I tried to do just that. I found that the 590, which is only 3mm bigger in radius than the 584, is still in widespread use, it's the most popular tire size in Japan. So there are lots of rims and tires made in that size. I went as far as sourcing rims and tires and offering them for FREE to customers and you know what? NO ONE TOOK THEM. They ALL opted to buy and use 584 rims and tires. Why, you ask?

Tire selection. There are some VERY nice 650B tires available.

The other factor is availability. QBP (the 800 lb gorilla of the wholesale bicycle industry) had thrown its weight behind 584. And I think customers see that and think, "this is middle size that will become dominant and be available."

So, rather than rely on logic and sensability, I just followed the herd.

I hear ya. I said the same thing. And it wasn't until I rode them that I understood.

I've thought about this a lot these are the consulsions that I've come to:

• we need a size between 559 and 622
  
• the best course of action is to support the most popular of those sizes - that will encourage rim and tire makers to bring more and better products to market - here in The States, the consumers have speken and 584 is what they want
  
• as krazy as it sound, good 584 wheels and tires offer a magical ride - we're still trying to figure out why, but until we do, the proof is in the riding of them
  
• the 'middleweight' format, the 590/597 size was VERY popular here in The States for a long time - at one time it was the biggest selling size - a vestige of that is the availability of 26 x 1 3/8" tubes and 590 tires - EVERY Walmart stocks them, and they don't stock any 622 tires

Kogswell

I do hear what you all are saying about tire availability. I started loaded touring in 1970 and even back then, people were talking about being able to find tires while on the road.

And again, that's why I tried to get folks to embrace the 590 size rather than the 584. Walmart sells a REALLY nice 590 tire and matching tubes. You can't beat that for availability. And there are some outstanding tires like the Schwalbe Marathon available in 590. That tire is BOMB PROOF. Not light, not fast, but durable and reliable. If you're looking at alternatives, look at the Marathon. Sun makes the CR-18 in 590 and it's a tough, double-wall rim that will take a lot of punishment.

The Kogswell P/R was not designed to be a loaded tourer. We meant it to work well as a delivery bike and as a randoneering bike. So far, so good. But early adopters found that it did make a good loadee. It has 440mm chain stays and as long a front center as you'll find anywhere. And the choice of forks allows the geometry to be changed to adapt to either a front or rear load bias. So you can really dial in the ride. The touring crowd asked me to make some changes like adding low-rider mounts to the fork and a third bottle cage under the D/T and so I did.

If anyone out there is thinking about a new bike, don't listen to me. Instead, join the KOG owners group and ask P/R owners what they think.

Now in case you've missed it, have a look at this video:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=LdJqzea1jco

That's a Kogswell P/R, with a loaded handlebar bag, being ridden down hill NO HANDS.

Try that with your bike and get back to me.

Nigeyy

Apologies for the thread hijack.

I also have to say that it looks a beautiful bike. But also add me to the list of people who wouldn't consider buying this bike simply based on wheel size. Why? OK, so taking your word that an in-between size is needed, the ride would have to be more than fantastic to take me away from the much more readily available 700c and 26" wheel sizes (something that after riding 700c and 26" wheels I honestly can't see, but I say that with the caveat I haven't ridden 650s). However, even thinking about it, even if the ride was somehow magically better, I'm still not sure I'd buy based on the fact I'm very happy with the performance of my 700c and 26" wheels anyway -sizes that are much more readily available......

Now if the 650 became really popular and more readily available, then.....maybe...! And with respect, it's great talking about the history of the market, what might happen, what sizes were available when, or will be etc, but to me it doesn't mean a thing; I want something I can get now (don't care about if XXX sizes were more popular years ago or will be popular in years to come). Doesn't mean a thing to me, and I just don't see alot of 650 stuff out there -and that's my experience and hence reality (to me, unless I'm dreaming!).

But here's a question: why didn't you equip the frame to take 650s AND 26" wheels? I know the 26" would effect the handling, but is it feasible? Or is a specifically designed 650 frame going to show really bad characteristics with a 26" wheelset?

Bekologist

The Porteur sounds like a bike with good stable geometry and forks with good trail and tracking.

The Long Haul Trucker is also remarkably stable no hands on gravel roads and pavement, at speed, loaded or unloaded.


I ride no hands on a fully loaded Long Haul Trucker doing 35-40 MPH + pretty regularily, Kogs.


for the likes of me i can't figure out whats wrong with choosing ETERO 559 or 622 but thats maybe just my luddism shining thru.. and there's a LOT of these tires and rims readily available......maybe its just me, but i've never noticed these wheels NOT working nicely.

And I have a bike with 597 hoops on it, Kogswell. sitting in my apartment right now. I just got up and compared these 597s with a 559 mounted up with a standard 'two and and eigth' on there; I see very little difference between the two. I can imagine the difference between a 584 and a 559 to be even less noticable.

and a 597 doesn't ride any better than a 622 as far as I can tell. nifty, not better. maybe 584 is the golden fleece and not the golden mean?


this is all just my opinion, but the Porteur would sell like GANGBUSTERS in the 559 or 622 size.


any takers on bringing back 630? going once, going twice..... no bids?

n4zou

Considering the proposed $1K price of a ready to ride LHT I think this M95 Swiss Military bicycle should be considered as well.


I found them for sale on Ebay at https://stores.ebay.com/Swiss-Army-bikes .
How cool would it be to show up at the start of a group tour on one of these?!

tacomee

Honestly, the LHT and other Surly frames are pretty good value. They have good designs and nice powdercoats.

But they are just Maxway Cycles frames re-branded as Surly.

Maxway also builds frames for Jamis, Novara, and almost every other big bike builder other than Trek or Cannondale. So what's the REAL difference between the LHT frame and say, the Jamis Aurora?

Nothing.

Erick L

Just look at the specs for both. They aren't the same frame at all.

NoReg

"The Kogswell P/R was not designed to be a loaded tourer."

That's your first mistake, right there! :0)

I'm building my own frames now, but if I hadn't I think a Porteur would have been a no brainer just because of the forks, a great looking bike that one could really tune/play with.

The real measure of the tire size is whether there is a really good folding touring tire. With one of those it's not too risky, and Walmart would be a help too.

tacomee

Eric,

Well, the Surly LHT has a slightly better fork and a better powder coat than the Jamis Aroura, but honestly, everything else is pretty close to the same for a 56-58 cm frame. The Surly has a chainstay that's maybe 20mm longer and a wheelbase that's 30mm longer. (I'm guessing here, but I do happen to know touring bikes pretty well) With today's set-back type racks and panniers-- that's nothing. Really.


Don't get me wrong-- I like the LHT frame. But it's not really any different than a pack of other steel framed touring bikes out there. So, yes, the LHT does have a lot of rivals. Because Jamis doesn't have a cult fallowing, guess what? It's more bike for the money

Erick L

Geometry, paint, material, braze-ons, tire clearance, wheel size... It's many small differences that make a big difference overall. The reason the LHT has cult status is because it's a true touring frame at a decent price. You can build it any way you want instead of changing a bunch of parts.

Warblade

I ride no hands and no feet regulary on my Madone doing, oh about, 67 mph down Stevens Pass. Quite exhilerating

Beko we're going to have fun talking about this thread on Friday! Or maybe Tuesday if I come in to hang out when I get my paycheck!

Nigeyy

I think the replies have said it all -I don't think there is. I also second comments made that if your feet that big, it may be time for a custom frameset ($$$$$s) or consider a trailer.

Bekologist

'blade, how do you steer a bike at 65 without using your feet?

....give 650B tires about ten years to see if they catch on, and then perhaps the Porteur becomes a viable alternative. maybe when both trek and specialized offer a couple of 584 bikes in their lineup. Specialized led the pack back in the 80's; maybe they'll go for the revolutionary 584 size.

for the near future, at that price point, i'd say, the LHT has no rival either in frameset or complete bike for 2007.

I think 1,000 dollar Long Haul Truckers is a good thing. thats the Proletariat in me, I guess.

SteelCommuter

There is a not-so-fine point both of you are missing: Kogswell said with a handlebar bag (presumably a Berthoud, I can't watch the video). Your comment can only have relevance if you had a loaded handlebar bag, and not one of those dinky ones that fit a banana and some energy bar. Anyone can ride no hands at speed, the point is can you do it with a heavy front load on your bike? Given the front end geometry of your bike, I doubt you could. It would be interesting to try it, so take a video if you can.

Bekologist

I'm not missing anything....my 'fully loaded' long haul trucker includes a full handlebar bag. as well as two panniers, sometimes ski boots on top of the panniers.

the Long Haul Trucker is a rock solid bike. Hands off the bars doing 40 is NOT a problem. It solid loaded or not, its about the stoutness and trail of the fork, i believe, as well as wheelbase, and other frame nuance.

I often go for the hands down by my sides 'ski jumper' position for better slipstreaming and a cool look. you can STEER a loaded Long Haul Trucker hands-free at speeds that fast, the bike tracks like a freight train.

i can't back warblades claims of feetless 60 plus riding on a Madone, i always like to have my feet firmly on the pedals at speeds over 50

like off North Cascades highway or Stevens (STEEP!) but I like the OLD Cascade road over Stevens instead of US2, the old highway road has like, NO TRAFFIC and lets you do 40-50 or so but not enough wiggle room for 65.


the LHT has no contemporary, only lesser rivals at her price point. I still love the look of the Porteur, but it needs different hoops in my opinion...

Warblade

I use telekinesis Beko'. It's all in the head you know!

Warblade

It's just because I'm a crazy racer kid with no fears!

NoReg

Lance is wrong, pain can be permanent and life long.

Next step, the LHT at Walmart!

30 MM on the wheel base, nominal IS what makes a difference, and defines something as touring vs. non touring. I've measured a bunch of bikes and in big boy sizes those 30mm are sometimes up to 50 even thought he chart says all the frames are 43. Most classic frame road dimensions are fairly small increments.

Are the current Surly LHTs powdercoated? Once they dumped the green I thought the new sparkly ones where sprayed paint like most bikes.

Alrocket

If you honestly want a really cheap tourer get an entry level mountain bike. I toured twice with (rear-only) loads of 30-40 kgs on my Trek 4300 (26x1.3 Sports Contacts) and the crappy suspension fork it has and a *****ty Trek rear rack for $25 or so.

*That's* a budget tourer.

guruguhan

I recently dumped the Giant OCR bike I was building in favor of an LHT. I had to go out of my way to track down a Sage green LHT in 58cm. I surely hope Surly doesn't go the McD generic route with their paint and colors.

Bekologist

A very strong rival to the LHT in 2007 will be the Rocky Mountain Sherpa.a bit pricier as a complete bike for about 1400 bucks.

very nice frame set. disc brake mounts. spoke holder. chain keeper. dang thing is all decked out. Even a generator tab (12V bottle generators available from Busch and Muller, make yourself a wicked recharging system....)

Rocky Mountain Sherpa, a viable contender as a rival to the Long Haul Trucker.