The Nitto "Campee" steel front rack, sold on the Rivendell website (and probably in other places) comes with very sturdy, elegant looking mounting hardware so that you can mount it without braze-ons in the middle of your fork. There are other racks around, but this is the one that I've been using.

Thanks for pointers Mark and Michael.

I caught that too, it was funny, especially considering that Mercain has been around WAY longer then Rivendell.

Michel, thanks for the advice! Yup, my plan is to start in Labrador City in the middle of May, and start riding to Goose once the snow is low enough. I'd much rather ride through snow and cold than bugs and heat! Do you know what road conditions are like in May? As long as there isn't lots of ice and think snow, I should be okay.

As for the non-existent winter, that seems to be the case all through the east this year! Temperatures in Toronto are WAY higher than usual. It's early January, I'm riding my bicycle in a sweater with no gloves!!! How is Quebec? Is it warm there too?

I grew up with Britrish bikes (Mercian, Jack Taylor and Bob Jackson) and the way I ride is very influenced by the old British cycle touring tradition of putting a saddlebag on the back and enjoying a day out on a lugged bike. So now that I find myself in the USA I'm a fan of Riv bikes and own a Rambouillet and a Quickbeam and they are the most comfortable bikes I've ever ridden, they high handlebar positon promoted by the Rivendell bikes is the way to go for comfort.

People seem to be fixated on Rivendells as being expensive, well some are and some are mid priced. My Quickbeam cost $1400 for the entire bike, admitidly its a singlespeed (well 4 gears actually), but for such a nice lugged frame bike I think its reasonable. And Rivendell now offers the Bleriot frame for $800 which with its 650b wheels would make for a great touring bike.

Comparing Mercians with Rivendells is interesting, is the quality of the finish different, I know the lugs on a Mercian are a lot fancier and the paintwork can be very intricate, but how does the construction campare. Actually I find the finish (lugs and paintwoirk) on Mercians to be a bit over the top, not Hetchins garish, but too jus too fussy. I like the simpler lugs and paintwork on the Rivendells

I really love Mercians but they aren't the same sort of bike as a Rivendell. Their philosophy is considerably different.

I stopped by Rivendell last month and looked over their bikes and I have to tell you that "carefully spec'd" ain't the half of it. Grant must do nothing but think about every little detail on a Rivendell.

Mercian had a good design 30 years ago and they're still building it today.

BOTH bikes are excellent choices but they aren't the same sort of bike.

Not that it would make the slightest difference to me. When I get back to work I will probably buy a Mercian as the last bike I'll purchase.

Finish of the bikes is about the same. The lugwork on most Mercians isn't as fancy as the Rivendells but the Mercian Vincitore has fancy lugwork of very high character.

I WOULD NOT recommend 650B wheel bikes for touring because you simply can't get tires anywhere but from a few sources. Now you could probably carry one spare and count on overnight delivery if you used that tire up. Rivendell sells these tires and stocks them and is exceptionally cooperative with tourists.

I wasn't thinking of the avaibility of the 650b tyres, just their utility, but its a good point that they would be
hard to find compared to 26" or 700c. The lugwork complexity does depend on the particular frames you're comparing, the Quickbeam has quite simple lugs, I think what might be more of a difference is the lug lining that Mercian does. I know some people who love it and others that hate it, I'm in the hate camp, just an aethsetic thing and I know its an option.

I think the real differences between Mercian and Rivendell are the tyre clearances, Rivendell's love of the 650b tyre size for some of its bikes and Rivendell's standard headtube extension and small up slope on the top tube.
I know that you could certainly ask mercian to build a bike with an upslope and headtube extension, I just don't think their default style would be as comfortable as that of Rivendell.

Mercian are definitely the best deal on a custom frame out there though.

OK, I understand this logic because I use it all the time myself. I justify not wearing a helmet because some crashes only break leg bones. I justify not learning Spanish because some people only speak Swahili. I justify not giving up Jaegermeister because I haven't given up tequila either.

But, I suspect the real answer is that somebody designed a pretty fork and didn't want any lumps or holes spoiling the look. And it is pretty.

i just picked up the summer '06 copy of the rivendell reader at a local bike shop. the more i read about grant's little enterprise, the more i become convinced no one should deal with the guy, ever.

Rivendell 'membership', 'prebooking' for things not in the country yet, bad advice (example, his flawed and misleading, i might say ignorant, assertion loaded basket bikes handle just as good as a bike packed for touring with the weight down low) and perienally 'out of stock' items aside,

his quickbeams are made by panasonic. his bleriots and some other frames are produced in tawian.I suspect some of his rambouilets are gruppo'd overseas to ship direct to his dealers. not that theres anything wrong with that, it just isn't what a 'custom' bike builder does. those are factory produced framesets. Grant's a marketing machine with some good specs.

a company like soma sells non custom frames for 400 bucks or so, surlys even less. and soma's got lugged framesets this year as well, probably produced at the same factory grant gets his bleriots brazed at.

Sour icing on the cake - in this summer '06 reader, he berated a dissatisfied customer (anonymously) that was unhappy with their Quickbeam purchase using 3 pages of the reader, including a picture of the 'offending' frame.

he found it necessary to print his 900 word defense he was going to send the purchaser about the flaws in the frameset, but deferred to send it privately. instead, he printed it so all his members could see how highbrow, lowlife, P.O.S. or what ever Grant thinks of himself. He went on and on about the 'dust mites' in the purchasers' eyebrows!

he feared being slammed on the internet, and i am happy to oblige him.

what a piece of work that grant peterson is. My dislike for such pretence borders on odious. the guy is pathetic.

The OP probably couldn't get an Atlantis in time anyway.
Maybe he can design a great bike, but i wouldn't deal with his company if i were you.

NUN, and other Mercain owners; If I'm not mistaken, isn't the Mercain prices more in line with the Atlantis that Rivendell also sells? And if so, do any of you know how the Mercain compares with the Atlantis? If no one has compared the Altlantis then what about the Rivendell? do not put the lugs into the equation, just overall value and quality...which would you buy?

I have a trip planned for this next summer to England, and have made "paper" plans to visit the Mercain shop and have one custom built and sent home when done; this is why I asked the crazy question above. Both the Atlantis and the Mercain intrique me, while the Mercain I like better but only from the Lugs standpoint, I like their spearpoints lugs a lot. The bike will be used for touring.

Froze, I'm a Rivendell owner, not a Mercian, and I believe that if we are comparing the Atlantis and the King of Mercia the differences are pretty much summed up in a pervious post of mine

"I think the real differences between Mercian and Rivendell are the tyre clearances,.... and Rivendell's standard headtube extension and small up slope on the top tube.
I know that you could certainly ask mercian to build a bike with an upslope and headtube extension, I just don't think their default style would be as comfortable as that of Rivendell."

Mercian is a bit more influenced by racing machines and specs campy parts on most of their bikes. They go to Shimano for the touring speced bikes.

Bekologist's points about lead time and some of the marketing crap connected with Rivendell are good points, I even think the company name is pretty cheesy, but that's doesn't stop them from being great bikes that are beautifully finished and ride really well. The customer service is very good, although the website does lag behind the stock sometimes, so its best to call.

Choosing between Mercian and Rivendell you carn't go wrong, just know what you want when you go to mercian, get the geometry worked out.

I can't let this pass. Your post is asinine.

The Bleriot is the one bike made in Taiwan, in cooperation with QBP, the owner of Surly. QBP, the owners of Surly, again, are selling this bike, too. Same price. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, because Bekologist can't read. They are accused of being too expensive, so they work with a major distributor and produce an affordable 650B frameset that's lugged and looks great in the pics I've seen. BTW, the Soma lugged frame is probably at the same place as the Bleriot and the Kogswells, and at the same price, too. Are we complaining about options?

"prebooking"? Buddy, you don't seem to know much about business. This is not unusual, in fact it is quite common among smaller bike businesses to make payments on small volume special orders, or to get in line for a custom. Paying a deposit on a custom is no different.
Memberships exist with REI, Performance, Adventure Cyclist, etc. etc. Basically, it is an incentive to subscribe to their magazine, and for the price a Bicycling subscription you get FAR more interesting stuff to read.

The article you speak of about a customer's dissatisfaction handled a delicate issue delicately, and was very fair to the customer, who remained totally anonymous. Rivendell's owner has always been open about his business dealings and problems.

I will clarify my position here: I think the OP probably should get a LHT or an affordable custom in his region. If he chooses to deal with Rivendell, he will find that the staff and the owner are warm, honest people who often bend over backwards to make customers happy. That has been my experience. I took my wife there to pick a bike, and she received more help and consideration than ANY bike shop I've been to. Since Bekologist can't get his facts straight, nor does he have any personal experience with them to communicate, I don't think his comment are reliable at all. I will add that the anonymous person in the article mentioned was able to return his used bike for a full refund.

I'm not a overzealous fan, but I do not like to see any good business or person misrepresent by some yahoo. Sorry for the interruption of the thread.

hey, steel,

grant prebooks your sweaters too. its rob peter to pay paul is what that is. I don't like it.

Prebooking a 'custom' frame to be built to your specs is an entirely different animal than paying the distributor in advance so he can clear customs duty on a crate of sweaters.

If its just the bleriots that get produced in taiwan, and the rest of his off the shelf, noncustom framesets by panasonic - and toyo - in japan, i misread his confusing diatribes about the golden fleece he builds them with.

i think grant blathering on about a dissatisfied customers mites in their eyebrows shows how elevated grant thinks he is. the story of how he handled that customers return is pathetic.

that's my opinion about rivendell, and i'm sticking with it.

Riv has prettier and more intricate lugs in general. My Mercian has very plain lugwork. Mercian will however build in any lugs you like - Henry James, etcetera - and their Vincitores have fancy lugwork, but they're pricier because of it. Interestingly, if you are good at carving, you can send in your own lugs and Mercian will build them into the bike, and a customer of theirs not long ago did just that: http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/newsstory.asp?id=64

I also think the paint jobs are nicer on Rivendells than Mercians, personally, although you get what they give you. My Mercian has slightly sloppy paintwork, to be honest, although it still looks beautiful and was done with the exact colors and scheme that I asked for. The lug lining you can tell was done free-hand with a paint pen, and whoever did it wasn't the most exacting artist - it's more like they hired a cake painter to do it. C'est la vie. It's still a show-stopper of a bike, and I constantly get asked about it. Riv has the benefit of Joe Bell though, and even the bikes he didn't paint have a cleaner paint job than any Mercian I've ever come across.

The Mercians are considerably cheaper than the Atlantis, though the prices range depending on what you get done with them. Since it is a custom, though, I can see no reason for getting an Atlantis or any other production bike instead of a Bob Jackson or Mercian if you're intending on spending a grand large, especially considering the fact that you could have them completely imitate the Atlantis in every detail if you wanted, and still get it cheaper.

I really don't know what to say about comparative build quality - a lot of that is stuff that you can't see. As Grant Peterson pointed out, no person can judge how well a braze was done by looking through the paint job. I'll just say that my bike is stable, fits well, it can certainly haul a load, it handles well, and it's what I asked for.

A more intricate paint job will make a Mercian more expensive than the very cheap base price, as will adding braze-ons for racks, etcetera. As far as clearances go, on mine I had them crank out the stays to accept very wide tires and a Rohloff hub at 135 mm, so that's no problem for them at all. One thing I really liked about them was that they had some spare Reynolds 531 ST (special tourist) tubing lying around and built my whole frame out of it when I asked them to. They'll do anything you want them to, which is the point of a custom. You are no more tied down to the base model than you are tied down to toppings when ordering a pizza, unless you order one "off the shelf" from them, which in my opinion would be a stupid thing to spend a grand on and would completely defeat the purpose of going to a "bespoke" bike manufacturer - it would be like going to a master tailor on Savile Row and just buying some pants off the floor from them.

I didn't have them build an oversized head tube, but you can imitate anything Rivendell (or any other marque) does if you like it so much.

This guy had his built with a "Riv-style" oversized headtube and wide stays, for example: http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2004/e/laumb.htm

The only thing about ordering a custom is that you'd best be sure about exactly what you want done with it, as nun so correctly pointed out. The stock chainstays will only come out to 44 cm, for example, and if you intend on putting big panniers on it, you'll want longer ones.

I've owned businesses before and I know what it takes. Grant scrapes by and he does a very nice job and his bikes will be charished for a long time after he's dead and gone.

Some of Rivendells are made by Panasonic? That's good since they were one of the first to use high technology production lines. Japanese bikes were ALWAYS as good or better than American made bikes.

Bridgestone RB-1's and even MB-2's still sell for what they did new - now, all beat up. These bikes WERE NOT that good but everyone loves them because Grant convinced them they were fine. And it isn't as if they aren't GOOD bikes, but they certainly never reached the quality levels of Rivendell.

You don't like his campy style of business. I can understand that but a large number of people find it interesting and I have to say that I do as well. Mind you, I do not go for a lot of his beliefs such as "lycra bad, scratchy wool good" but what the heck. Lots of people prefer wool because it doesn't stink when you have to wear it again the second or third day. Can't do that with most man made fabrics unless you are trying to keep people at a distance.

The higher end Rivendells are made in the USA and in some cases by the premier American maker - Waterford.

Grant indeed does buy some strange parts and makes them available to people. And I happen to like MOST of the parts he specs. I've mounted bar end shifters on several of my non-cross bikes because they're a whole lot cheaper, lighters and no harder to use than brifters and I have the friction shifting option which I've actually used on one occassion when I bent a ring. The Sakae cranks and the like actually have useable ratios. His derailleur selections are practical without being pricey.

You're certainly entitled to your opinions though.

+1 on this. I couldn't have said it better. For someone, such as Bekologist, that hates a company so much he sure does know a lot about them. Bekologist must not ever go into any retailer or do business with anyone except Wal-Mart as this is how small businesses do business.

They HAVE to go through these intermediaries and order small bulk purchases. It does them no good to order 5,000 frames or derailleurs at the beginning of the year from someone and then have them lying around at the end of the year and then become unable to pay bills because they have a million dollars worth of inventory laying around. That would just be plain stupid.

I looked at the soma lugged frames and you can get a frame and fork for about $675, I don't think this includes the headset so there's another $100 with installation, so you're right at the price of a Bleriot which is $750 for frame, fork and headset

I was a bit disturbed by Grant P's open letter about the trouble with the Quickbeam customer, not something that I'd really want to share, but it doesn't detract from my excellent experiences with buying stuff from Rivendell or riding their bikes. Sure there's a lot of West Coast BS they they indulge in, but I generally like their
approach to cycling and the designs that it has produced. I think it goes over the top with products like the Nigel Smyth bags which are just toofancy and seem to be an example of style winning over utility.

If I had to choose one bike to ride for the rest of my life it would be my Quickbeam, very comfortable and riding single speed has taught me that gears changes are and best used sparingly

i never shop at walmart and prefer to toss my money around at small businesses as a matter of course. I know the cheesmonger that sells me cheese, the farmers i buy produce from, the milkmaid i buy dairy products at.

grant's enterprise leaves an unsavory feeling with this member of the proletariat.

Maybe he makes sense with the bourgeois gentilhommes in the bike world, i prefer to avoid such postured pretence.

his vent about a dissatisfied customer in his summer 06 reader further disgusted me. i did pick it up yesterday, so my dislike was fresh....

are stock rivendell framesets really that good to wait four months for? I'd say, emphatically, NO, no off the shelf frame is worth partial payment in advance to help the owner cover his bottom line and a four month wait.

I personally love it when Beke goes off about Rivendell. He's funny.

I guess I'm kind of a fence-sitter on this issue. I happen to agree with Beke in a lot of ways about Grant P and the way he does his business, though I find Grant infinitely better than most business people and marketers I've seen, and I admire him as an ersatz keeper of the flame for products that have a pre-1980s mindset. I would much rather have a thousand Grants in the world selling tried and true works of craft and hand labor (even though he can be kind of a huckster) than the cheap manufactured plastic-pushers of today's big business world.

However, there is a definite J Peterman thing with Rivendell, as Beke has pointed out time and again. I know that marketing is designed to sell things, but I find Riv to be goofy in the way they do it sometimes - they will outright rhapsodize about a Ticonderoga #2 pencil or Lip Ivo lip balm (seriously, not one iota better than ordinary Chapstick - they just like it because it's old and "the original lip balm since 1901," and they don't want it becoming extinct, as far as I can tell), and I think it is kind of silly that otherwise intelligent consumers might be inclined to get caught up in the brainwashing way that Riv hawks certain products.

Again though, they sure do make some very nice bikes and cater to a style of product that - thank God - hasn't yet vanished from the world, and if money grew on trees, I would definitely consider getting one of their customs. At their prices though, if I wanted to pay out the nose I would much rather have someone at Alex Singer make me a boutique bike. We need J Petermans.

i read that you have to be 50 or over to purchase a rivendell!:D :D :D :D

That's why I started this whole thread in the first place -- totally got swooned over by their marketing!! It's effective, in a zany but very confident way. And I'm sure that Rivendell make fantastic bikes, but when it comes to a question of "need" vs. "want", I'll happily save a thousand bucks and buy a LHT.

Wow, Brunop...it's been almost a year. I'm glad you're into recycling, or are you unable to think of anything new to say?

01-20-06, 10:44 AM #15
brunop
hell's angels h/q e3st ny
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: boston area/morningside heights manhattan

i think you have to be 50 or older to ride a rivendell. they check i.d.'s

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

This thread needs a pic in it.


Attachment 33987


Now maybe we can all just go ride our bikes.

Comparing Rivendell to J Perterman is spot on, there is some similarity and its often a a topic of iBOB conversation.

Rivendell's are not race bikes, even the Rambouillet is more of a sport tourer than a road race bike, and they are built for anyone who wants to enjoy their riding rather than hammering at 20 mph plus. So you don't need to be over 50 - just not a racer.

The Rivendell bikes are beautiful and I think well worth the money and the wait, but the LHT will serve you very well and at $400 its great value for money, its got a great touring geometry and the money you save you can spend on a tought set of wheels with Xt, XTR, White Ind, or if you go crazy Phil hubs.

If you are looking for comfort you might consider some wide drop handlebars, the 46cm Nitto Noodle bars are really comfortable, the extra width opens up the chest, not the best aerodynamically but makes for easy
breathing

I think Mark got his answer a long time ago. I am always amazed how these threads get derailed. From should I buy an Atlantis, to bear spray to Riv bashing :D

But since we are on the topic of Rivendel...why hate the man and the company just because they are doing what they want to do, selling what they want to sell, regardless of what's mainstream. Bekeologist, you sound like you have something personal against them. Like anything else, take what you like and leave the rest. They turned me on to wool T-Shirts and that in itself, I am grateful for. Are the bikes good enough to wait 4 months for? Apparently they are because people are waiting. Is a Bilenky, Davidson, Singer worth waiting 6-12 months for?? Same answer. I don't like everything they sell so I don't buy it. Personally l like their oversized saddle bags but... think it's crazy they don't make them with modern fabrics and plastic buckles. Sometimes hey are retro for the sake of being retro...but I digress.

People say you are just paying for a name but you are paying for the name because the name developed a reputation as being high quality (or low quality). What do you think of when you hear Davidson, Bob Jackson, Independent Fab versus Murray or Huffy. Name=High Quality=more $$$. Fortunately companies like SOMA and Surly break the equation but it's not common.

I didn't find the article on the Panasonic all that offensive and learned something from it. He probably should have obtained permission before printing the letters. Personally, I hope I never get that critical about anything. If the writer, built it up and rode the bike, he probably would have loved it rather than just looking at the bike through a microscope.

hey zonk! where ya been duder? but yeah i quote myself quite a bit seein' as how i'm the wittiest dude i know. bar none! hardeeharhar!!!!:eek: :) :eek: :) ;)

Unless the client buys a full page add spreading poison, you have to be a jackass to write a large blog on a customer return. Other than that I don't have a problem with Riv and look forward to doing business with them.

Whatever bike you get it's probably going to get thrashed. So, don't spend any extra on "pretty". It probably won't be pretty when you get back. It may also get destroyed, stolen, or you may have to abandon it. Think about it bouncing around in the back of a pickup truck, stuffed in a trunk, or lashed to a logging truck.
26" wheels are stronger than 700c and you can fit much fatter tires. The fat tires cushion the ride and save wear and tear on you and your equipment. At times they may even be faster than 700c. You don't have to pick your way through rough conditions as much. You ride over things more confidently because you have more confidence in you wheels. Fat tires have more grip so the bike handles and brakes better. Fat tires float over dirt, gravel, and sand better. A 36 spoke 700c wheel is strong but a 36 spoke 26" wheel is even stronger.
If there's a lot of mud disk brakes may be nice. Mud accumulates around cantilevers. If you are constantly in wet conditions cantilever pads can wear out quickly and that awful grinding. I think the Shimano caliper is more robust than the Avid. I've used both and both brake well. I broke an Avid caliper putting on a brake cable. The threaded arm which holds on the caliper lever is made of a fragile cast material. It's easy to crack it if you are not careful and then the caliper lever falls off. Get a frame with both disk brake tabs and cantilever studs, you're ready for anything. Use rims that are compatible with rim brakes, don't use disk specific rims, and use disk brake hubs. Shimano has some new calipers that are compatible with road brake levers. Avid has had these for a while. Install auxiliary cyclocross levers for the really sketchy stuff. Shimano disk hubs use a center lock design making replacement rotors for them less common.
Look for some racks that mount to the cantilever studs. Brake screws are much more robust than water bottle cage screws. I'd bet they would not come loose. I think the skewer through the lower mounts has got to be way stronger than water bottle cage screws screwed into the dropouts. Chromoly racks have got to be stonger than aluminum. Racks that are welded together have no screws to come loose.
You are not going to be doing the fair weather, smooth road, close to civilization sort of touring. Almost any equipment holds up under those conditions and a bike store or help is a reasonable possibility.

Hey, you've got a perfect right not to like the way he does business. He knows that the way he presents his bike business will turn some people off. He's going for a niche market and he's finding it.

I was over there looking around and saw the Homer Hilsen and I've got to tell you that if I was working right now I would have bought it. It was Waterford built and every line was perfect. The paint job was very nice if a bit too conservative for my tastes (I prefer bright BE SEEN colors) and the workmanship was every bit as good as Waterford is famous for.

I won't be wearing baggy shorts, semi-dress shirts or wearing tennis shoes and using clips and straps anytime now or the far distant future. Lycra is good, Coolmax is BETTER, clipless pedals are a God-send that make cycling a lot safer even if you do have to have special shoes. Just use SpDs and touring shoes and you're fine.

And when I tried using those big fat tires they had too much rolling resistance for my tastes. I ride a bit faster perhaps than most of Rivendell's crowd does so I notice what they don't.

But rough camping and touring on a Rivendell is not a bad way to go. And you can sit and look at your bike for hours on end if you read up the last of the books you bring with you.