Hey folks,

Okay, so I'm planning out my first major bike tour (done a couple of shorter trips already) for this coming summer. It's not going to be a short one. I'm mapping out a full cross-Canada trek, starting by crossing Labrador from west to east in mid May, once the snow melts, and ending up in Tuktoyatuk NWT (close to where the Yukon/Alaska border meets the Arctic Ocean) in early October.

I obviously need a decent frame for this. There will be lots of snow, lots of crappy gravel highways, and 12,000 km under my tires. (you may think this is overly ambitious for my first big trip. don't worry. after three months solo-camping in the arctic last year, this'll be easy.)

So I'm reading online, and everyone speaks very highly of the Rivendell Atlantis. Problem is, the frame costs $1400 USD. Now, I have no intention of cheaping out here -- a good frame is worth its weight in gold. But is the Rivendell THAT good? I'm told the Trek 520 is flimsy, Bruce Gordon is generally too expensive, Cannondale T2000 looks good but I'd rather support a small manufacturer, never liked Fuji, many other options but I can't remember...

Anyway. I very much do want a Rivendell. I just want someone to tell me it's really worth the $1400. And if not, I'd love to hear how the other options match up. A Bruce Gordon BLT frame goes for $1000. Worthwhile?

Much thanks for any help!

-mark

People have ridden across the northern tier on Schwinn Varsitys.

A Rivendell is a very nice bike as are the others mentioned. You chose a Rivendell because that's what you want and not because it's what you need.

IMO, not worth it. If you need MTB tires, then do check out the BG, and I've heard good things about Thorn. I've seen a few (never ridden one), it looks like an awesome beast of burden.

My sister (same size as me, 5'2") hates her Atlantis - it doesn't handle right. She's taken it back to Riv. for them to check the geometry, they say there's nothing wrong, but it's unstable. She will probably sell it and buy a 520 for her next tour (if there is a next tour - she doesn't like touring that much.) Problem is, it's a lot of money for a bike you can't test ride.

Who said the 520 is flimsy? I like my 520 a lot. I only ride a little gravel, though, so the tire size might be an issue. There is clearance for a cyclo cross tire. If it's not an issue the 520 is a whole lotta bike for the $ (swap cranks for MTB cranks, though).

Hi,
Rivendells are like Acuras or Lexus. Surly makes a touring frame for $400
that is really quite nice. I think somebody else makes one for a bit more, I'll
try and remember it and get back to you.

https://www.surlybikes.com/longhaul.html

The flat out best touring bike I ever saw for serious touring is
the Waterford Adventure.

You might want to look at a Novara Safari, $ 850.00 usd on REI website .

I like the Rivendell site and think they have lots of good ideas. Unfortunately almost none of them have anything to do with the kind of trip you are proposing. They are the retro touring style company, not the expedition touring company. I wouldn't bail on the trip if I was stuck with a Rivendell, but it would not be on my wish list.

It would help to know where you are located since the cost of getting a frame varies a lot depending on where you live. It would also help to know your size. It's a lot easier to get expedition grade frames for small people. The LHT with 26" wheels seems pretty much ideal.

Sakkitt has the best concept for what you are planing, but they will never be ready unless you are leaving in about 2 years. After them maybe the Coomotion, though they are a 700c frame, however that's an option certainly. Then there is Rock and Road by Gordon. It would be a great choice. IF makes some custom bikes that seem good and not too slow to get.

If you are in Canada check out Arvon Stacey.

Cost wise, the main issue is how well you fit off the rack. If you are normally proportioned, not super long legs and short body , or the reverse, etc... then you should be able to fit a stock bike and you will not gain the main advantage of a custom bike. If you are easily fit off the rack, then 1400 dollars is cheap for what you get in a custom bike.

To check out more custom options check out the touring options here, and their framebuilders list:

https://www.sandsmachine.com/#Touring%20Bike%20Photos:


I was in Labrador one late June. Very deep snow everywhere. We were fishing, and the ice was off the rivers between the lakes so we did OK.

Thanks for the advice everyone! This is exactly what I wanted to hear. I've heard great things about the Surly LHT (among others) and the $1,000 saved goes a long, long way.

I guess my biggest concern is that this will be a heavy, tough, brutal ride, and I don't mind shelling out for a frame that can handle it. The last thing I want is a dead tube midway between Dawson City and Fort McPherson. But I also don't mind saving money, and if a less expensive frame can handle it, then that's what I'll buy.

Where exactly were you in Labrador? I'm told that snow conditions vary all over the province. I don't mind riding through a bit of snow (all the touring i've done so far has actually been in winter) but obviously can't bike through 3 feet of it.

Thanks also for advice on the frames! I'm an average-proportioned dude, 6 feet tall, 170 lbs, so I shouldn't need anything custom. I don't have a ton of money for this -- just don't want to cheap out on the essentials. As for wheels, I'd rather go for 700C rims since I want to cover a lot of distance in not a lot of time. So long as I have clearance for thicker tires, everything should be fine.

The Trek 520 is flimsy? I have heard for more positive stories and reviews than negative ones. In the grand scheme of things, is Cannondale really a big company?

The Rivendells are beautiful bikes with their lugs and such. But you are buying something about style as well as function. Long story short, in my opinion, you can get something just as functional for $1500 complete.

Did anyone else notice that Burley stopped selling bikes?

You should also check out Marinoni in Quebec. Their Turismo and Turismo Disc are great values in a custom frame (prices from Bike Specialties in Toronto: frame and fork are $675CD or $750 CD (disc model), built up with XT/Ultegra for $1840 CD or $2175 CD (disc model))

When I was touring in Quebec two years ago I camped in Neuville with a Québécois cyclist that rode to "Tuk" from Calgary the previous year, He said it was a brutal ride. often long lonely distances between outposts or villages, crazed truck drivers, mud and bears. His bike was a Koga-Miyata expedition bike ("World" model IIRC) which is in the same family as a Beckman, Gordon BLTX or Rock & Road EX. all are 26" wheeled touring bikes
While the frame is important much of the difference is on the head badge, Rivendell makes a very good bike but they are "Bling" so the price is higher. Bruce Gordon has been building touring bikes since the 70's and has long been considered one of the best. $1000 for his BLTX frame is a good deal IMO. Robert Beckman hasn't been around as long as Gordon, but he has set the quality bar higher. but what ever delivery time Beckman estimates,you may need to double that. A lesser known builder who does great work at a reasonable price IMO is Tom Teasdale
https://www.tetcycles.com/Frames/Moun...t_touring.html

For where you are going strong wheels will be more important than who made your frame. with the exception of Koga Miyata ( provided you can find one) few off the shelf bikes will have durable enough wheels for what you want to do. Peter White is a very good wheel builder on the east coast.

Edited to add: I looked up a " InuviK" on CGOAB and found two journals related to the Dempster Highway to Inuvik
Their experiences contradicts some of what I was told. https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/searc...k&o=lt&doc_id=

Don't get me wrong I like Rivendell Bikes, I love their website, I like their attitude, but you are paying for a great deal of "panache" (for want of a better word) . They design the bikes, and get others to build the frames. At least they seem to have some very high end quality work done. Rivendell is certainly not alone in this, many, many, "boutique" bike builders don't make their own frames, they are made offshore, (I believe Rivendell has some of their frames made in the US).

In my, very humble opinion, if you are doing to spent big bucks on a frame, and want fit and quality, over the "gee wiz" factor, why not find a good custom builder?
Mark where are you located?

Here is my Long Haul Trucker. I love it. Nothing cheap about it. It is everything that a good touring frame should be. A Rivendell is more like riding around on a Mona Lisa. I would like to have one one day but this will get the job done just as well.

PC220365.jpg

That's what I was worried about. If I was getting $1400 of bike, I'd bite the bullet and buy one. If I'm only getting $700 of bike and $700 of name badge, there's no way. I'm selling one of my favorite cameras to pay for this, so I want to make the most of my buck. Especially if the savings can help pay for a set of rock-solid rims like you suggested.


Oh, and I'm sorry, I didn't mean to diss the Trek 520 (I rode a 7200 for years and loved it), but I've done some forum bouncing and saw folks complaining about it. Or maybe they were just complaining about the parts? Can't remember, it was 2 AM and I was exhausted...

I'm leaning more and more towards the Long Haul Trucker now. If the frame is that solid and only costs $450-ish, that leaves me room for some killer components.

Thanks again for all your suggestions! This has been amazingly helpful!

Mark, you can check out the Urbanite tourer at Urbane Cycle (www.ucycle.com). I think they also deal Surly. Hugh Black at True North Cycles also does custom work. I've seen a few of his bikes, and they are very nicely done (https://www.truenorthcycles.com/).

I've had my Rivendell Canti-Romulus (think relaxed road bike with canti brakes for wider tires) for about a year and a half, and I really enjoy riding it. While I like the Rivendell products, if I were buying a touring bike, it would be a toss up between the Atlantis and a custom tourer from someone like True North.

Hey---Your route looks fun btw. I would pull the above from velo's post as well.

You're more likely to have wheel problems than frame breakage (although I did drop a chainstay in Thunder Bay on my first tour, so...)--but overall I messed with spoke replacement; wheel truing more often. There's nothing like a rubbing brake pad to mess with your mind . As you said "crappy gravel roads"-- you might want to consider going with 26 inch wheels. If your route has a decent amount of gravel roads (probably some potholes, etc. to deal with) that would be more of a limiting factor in regards to speed than rim diameter. Plus you'll have a larger selection of tires with 26 " wheels (at least in the 1.75 to 2.25 range) I'd guess. Either way you go think stout and know how to fix em. Take it with a grain of salt. Messing with wheel problems is a momentum breaker though. You'll have a bomber trip regardless--later

If Jamawani was still here, he'd have some great advice for you since he has more than likely been on part of your route. JAMAWANI come back dude --your road knowledge is unmatched on this board. HEY JOHN---pipe in and give this guy some advice.

Rivendell has many fans, but what their price buys you is a superb traditional road-touring or (smooth) all-terrain frame. I find that their design is less suited to really rough roads such as you'll find in Labrador and especially in the North West Territories. Ditto for Co-Motion, which has a really nice bike, the Americano.

And if you compare prices, Bruce Gordon has a price for the whole bike. You'll end up spending 1000-1200 $ LESS for a Bruce Gordon than for a fully equipped Rivendell. Start with wide tires (700x45 or 26 x 2.25, which can be fitted even with fenders), and replace them with narrower tires around Baie-Comeau. Then switch back to wide tires when you hit the Great North again. And if you go that way, get Bruce Gordon's racks; since they are steel and well crafted, they won't crack with gravel-induced vibrations. To me, the only other suitable racks for the roads you plan to ride on would be Tubus; not much cheaper and not as nice, especially in front.

Other bikes?
I don't know how wide you can go on a Surly LHT (700x35-38 with fenders, I think), but I doubt you can go as wide as you would with a Bruce Gordon. And their cyclocross offerings would work only if you ride with a trailer.

As for the Cannondale Txxx and Trek 520, they aren't flimsy. I have a Trek 520 and it's almost as rigid as a Bruce Gordon. I am sure I would not break it on a tour like yours. That being said, there are a few drawbacks with both of them:
- Too high gearing. On my Trek, I asked the shop to replace the crankset with a mountain one (44-34-22). That was free because I bought the bike during the dead season. Guess what: Bruce Gordon already has such gearing.
- Too narrow tire clearance. I think the Cannondale fits only 700x37. The 520 fits only 700x42 rear and 700x32-33 front. Good for tours in the South, but not in your environment.

The racks are a hell of a lot more important than the touring frame. Bruce Gordon racks or Tubus racks are really reliable on a trip like you're proposing. Buy a LHT or a Trek 520 and put the money into the equipment.

Gordon Racks

The Latest (cheap but very well made) Performance Pannier

I'd get Bruce to make a front rack that would mount low riders AND with a rack top so that you could put a "truck rack" type of bag on it instead of a handlebar bag. That way you could fit an LED headlight as well as the LED taillight. You shouldn't ride when you'd need these but there are always times on a ride when you're too late or you have to go get something at the store in the middle of the night. The truck rack kind of bags are easily removeable and you can carry them around much easier. Moreover they're lower than a handlebar bag so when you overload them they aren't as much of a problem.

A GOOD sleeping bag, self inflating pad and a really good tent. One of those small 3 AA battery LED flashlights so that you can read before you go to sleep and find your way to the nearest tree in the dark. Anything that's left outside of the tent WILL be torn apart by raccoons so a two person tent is better than a one person tent.

Low gearing is very important. High gearing isn't. I liked someone's suggestion of a Shimano LX Trekking triple which is 48-36-26 but I'd change the lowest with a 24. I'd also use a 9-speed 11-32 or if you're not a great climber you might want the 34 but I find that to be too slow to balance well. Though when you're really tired and it's been a long day a 34 sort of floats through your head as a good idea.

I use barend shifters because they have a friction mode and they're really cheap. Many others prefer the Brifters and that's fine too.

I definitely advise a good set of CHEAP wheels such as https://cgi.ebay.com/2004-Mavic-Cosmo...QQcmdZViewItem - these are very good touring wheels.

There's only one saddle - a Brooks B17. They're pretty comfortable to start with though you slide around forward on them if you don't tilt them up a bit. But after a couple of hundred miles after they start to break in you'll LOVE it.

Bike computers are a pain in the butt because they're broken as much as they're working. But Sigma Sport makes the most reliable I've used. And I've used pretty much all of them. Cheaper is usually better.

You'll be carrying cooking gear and food as well I expect. Hiking cooking stoves and pots/pans are good. "Camping" food IS NOT. Buy your dailey food along the way for each day with a little emergency reserve. Canned beans and the like taste good as well as powering you up for the next day.

Be sure to carry an emergency roll of toilet paper with you. And carry a medical kit with Aleve for toothaches (takes a long time to start working but works better for toothaches than valium) and general aches and pains. Some LARGE bandade brand bandages - they have some 3" jobs that are handy. Some Neosporin or one of the copies. And some of those cleaning cloths that come in sealed packets so that you can clean your road rash. BRING IMODIUM and watch what you eat. You don't want to risk being on the road with diarrhea and you can take that for fact.

If you want to carry a small beltpack pepper spray to discourage varmints that's fine but you'll find putting everything in the tent at night works a lot better. Remember that raccoons can smell chocolate inside of sealed pouches and they will tear anything apart to get at them EXCEPT get too near a human. And raccoons know how to open zippers in case you weren't aware. When you leave your camp always leave the zippers at the top of their motion.

I wouldn't call this good advice in BEAR country.

A friend rode the Trans Lab many years ago in later summer. I guess the flies about ate him alive which is why I am guessing you are going early? Sounds like a great trip.

Don't want to repeat what everyone else is saying but you would be buying a lot of bike if you got the Atlantis and you would be paying extra for the lugs and paint. I second the LHT, Trek, Urbane Cyclist, Koga and REI Safari. I like the LHT over the Trek, had both, because the crown fork provided more clearance and you will need it for the muddy places you will by riding and pushing yourself through. The Safari is aluminum thus harder to repair. Although frame failure is rare, it does happen but having said that, I wouldn't hesitate using it with a better set of wheels.

26" wheels would give you more bigger tire options although 700cs are catching up. Again, you will need the clearance even if you won't be using the biggest tire you can mount. You might also want to check out the Thorn Sherpa. It's their production touring/commuting bike and would serve you well. Also agree with putting more into the wheels and racks and not getting to crazy about the frame. My Bridgestone MB1 saw about 25,000 miles of touring before I sold it and a lot of it was on dirt/sand etc...

If you post your adventure, please let us know!

I definately think you want to go with 26" wheels.

The Bruce Gordon BLT costs $2119 complete including racks.
The REI Novara Safari costs $849 complete with rear rack.

Advantages of the Bruce Gordon.
*Handmade frame by someone whose been at it a long time.
*Steel frame.
Widely believed to have a better ride than aluminum.
*Hand built wheels.
Read what Rodriguez Bicycles says about handbuilt wheels. https://www.rodcycle.com/
Click on "Touring Bikes" and then on "Rodriguez Adventure" and then on "handbuilt wheels with a 3-year warranty".
*Welded racks made of chromoly.
Stronger than aluminum, no fasteners to come loose.

Disadvantages of the Bruce Gordon.
*It costs $1270 more.
*No disk brakes.

Advantages of the Safari.
*It cost $1270 less.
*Has disk brakes.

Disadvantages of the Safari.
*Frame is of unknown origin, unknown quality.
I've been to REI and seen this bike. The frame looks beefy. I've ridden anonymous aluminum frames like these for years and have never had problems.
*Aluminum frame.
*Wheels are almost certainly not hand built.
This would be more of a concern to me than the frame. But, the Safaris wheels look good. They have 36 spokes which is unusual for a 26" wheel. The Bruce Gordon has 36 spoke wheels too.
*Aluminum rack with many fasteners.
*Has 48/36/26 chainrings instead of the 44/32/22 chainrings of the Bruce Gordon.
Lower is better for fully loaded touring.

I'd go with the Bruce Gordon.
The Safari would probably be just fine but your planned tour is of an extreme nature. I'd want to have no doubts about my bike.

Are you suggesting someone should shoot pepper spray into the face of a bear? I suppose you've done this so you know what a bear THEN does?

I'll take issue with this for a little bit:

Handbuilt wheels are the standard by which all wheels should be judged. The problem is that you just don't know who built your wheels EVEN if your shop tells you that they built your wheels. Many shops just buy some machine made wheels and then tighten the spokes and retrue them for customers.

OK, YOUR shop builds your wheels from scratch. Well, that still doesn't mean they're good wheels because there aren't a whole lot of small time shop owners who build REALLY good wheels. That's why the hand built wheels people have such reputations.

The reason I suggested Mavic Cosmos wheels is simple - they're built with all of the the correct components. Mavic rims and hubs are the very best you can get anywhere and that includes King or Phil Wood hubs. Mavic is the standard for high quality rims. I don't know where they get their spokes but Mavic wheels don't break a lot of spokes though since they are spoked wheels some people DO break a spoke now and again.

But Mavic has all of the BEST machinery in the world for building wheels. They start with straight rims which is a BIG deal. They thread the hubs and start the spokes by hand and then the machine applies huge pressures to the rim to collapse it enough so that the spoke tighteners don't strip the nipple heads as they do on some of the wheel machines out there.

The wheels come out of the machines and are checked and retrued if necessary but usually it ain't necessary.

I have wheels built by my LBS guy and they're really good wheels. But he's been building wheels for 55 years. And his wheels cost a great deal more than the Mavic Cosmos and he's the cheapest wheel builder around.

So, yeah, handbuilt wheels by a good builder are really good, but Mavics are almost as good and you can get them for 1/3rd the price.

And just for conversation - why would ANYONE want disk brakes? Add extra weight that gets in the way of racks and fenders and doesn't stop you any faster nor more reliably than old fashioned cantilevers?

Sorry, but Mavic Cosmos wheels are not suitable for touring. The front wheel has 24 spokes and the rear wheel has 28 spokes.
700c touring wheels need 36 spokes. On a 26" wheel you can get away with 32 spokes for touring.
I had a pair of Mavic Classics Pro. The rear hub body cracked and the wheel was useless.
The next pair of wheels were handbuilt with Mavic Open Pro rims and Dura Ace hubs.
That was six years ago and they're still going strong. They rarely need any attention.
My 700c touring wheels are handbuilt with Mavic T217 rims and Deore XT hubs with 36 spokes.
I've toured on these and raced cyclocross. I don't think they have ever needed to be trued.
They were built ten years ago.
My wheels were not built by a celebrity wheel builder. They were built by the guys who just happened to be working at the bike shop at the time. They ARE good, obviously.
Mavic does not list the Cosmos wheels on their website any longer. Maybe that's why you got them so cheaply.
I don't agree that handbuilt wheels cost more. Their retail price CAN be more than some machine built wheels but there are machine built wheels that can cost more than handbuilt wheels.
Also, the longevity of handbuilt wheels makes them cheaper to own over time.
Many of the machine built wheels use non-standard spokes. They are very sexy until you need a spoke.
Have you ever tried to hunt down a spoke for a Mavic Ksyrium on short notice?

The current generation cable actuated disk brakes work superbly. Avid even makes calipers that are compatable with road brake levers in three different rotor sizes. Cantilever brakes may be as strong initially but then they fade. Disk brakes work better in the rain. Disc brakes are not dependent on the trueness of the wheel and they do not wear out the sidewall of the rim. I like cantilever brakes but there's nothing wrong with disks.

I think the Atlantis is a great bike concept, but for $1400/frame, I would just as soon buy a lesser-priced custom or even a semi-custom like the Waterford adventure cycle - at least you're getting something that was made specifically for you at that price.

The Atlantis is a 100% production frame, with no tailoring at all. You get what they have, if they estimate it to be in "your size" and they happen to have one in stock.

The Surly LHT really is a much much smarter buy if you're just looking for a pre-made frame for touring, particularly if the Atlantis concept is your thing. As you said, you could cut costs for componentry too. They are TIG-welded, not lugged, and they make use of a threadless steerer, and they're nowhere near as pretty, but otherwise their shape and nearly everything else is very much like the Atlantis, from the widened stays to the oversized headtube to the angles. Don't be fooled either; I've seen people throw together some very elegant-looking LHT bikes, definitely.

The Goldilocks solution, imo, between price and top end value (and aesthetics) - especially if you place a great deal of value on lugged frames the way Rivendell pushes them (they do overhype this point somewhat, by the way, as per Rivendell demeanor about everything they sell, including simple #2 pencils) - would be a Bob Jackson or a Mercian from Great Britain, which are completely custom, with all decisions made by you, from frame geometry to choice of steel to doo-dads and braze-ons to paint scheme, and still less expensive than an Atlantis. If pretty lugs are your thing, you can send them your own (or some Henry James pre-cuts) and they will incorporate them into the frame. My Mercian came to $1350 with shipping, including a Chris King headset and Rohloff-specific dropouts plus tons of little things I added. If I didn't get as extravagant as I did, it would have run closer to $1100.

My $0.02. Good luck with both your tour and your purchase! Have fun with it. New bikes are wonderful things.