Unless he's shuffled the manufacturing mix around again, the full custom Rivs are built by Curt Goodrich in Minnesota, the A Homer Hilson model is built by Waterford in Wisconsin, the Bleriot is built in Taiwan and everything else is built by Toyo in Japan.

the true way
 

They have an additional builder for their customs since Curt is a busy boy and not all Homer Hilsens are built at Waterford. Toyo is and/or will, be building them also. Additionally, the Quickbeam was produced by National Panasonic. I suspect like any business, the "G man" does what is necessary to make a fine steel bike at a more affordable price, that is lugged, still make a profit and pay his employees. To me, the lugs are what make a Riv bike special, since you can't buy them off the rack, not to mention, the well thought out designs for practical cycling. There are many little things in the design and build process that you won't see that make them more durable, than some, as well. If I could afford one, I'd have one and I may someday soon. :D

Thanks for straightening me out there. I appreciate it.

The Rivendells are indeed very well made bikes, probably amoung the best in the world for lugged steel. But even Rivendell will tell you that their Atlantis model is 98% of what a Rivendell is for less money. Maybe you can't afford the Rivendell but the Atlantis is a superb model that you would not be able to discern the difference other then the name. You can see the Atlantis and their prices on the Riv web site.

I'm confused
 

"But even Rivendell will tell you that their Atlantis model is 98% of what a Rivendell is for less money. Maybe you can't afford the Rivendell but the Atlantis is a superb model "

Froze, I'm not sure what you mean here. Isn't the Atlantis their top model? What comparative bike are you referring to? Is there a new model called the "Rivendell"?

just curious.

'riv' -full custom versus
'atlantis' canti brake bossed, overseas small batch production in set tube sizes.

Rivendell will be able to grow by moving their off-the-peg frame production to Taiwan. Taiwan makes awesome bikes but can be a very confusing place in which to do business unless you really know the scene and have the right connections. I hope they are able to move more production to Taiwan and lower their prices.

Is Rivendell even interested in growing? From reading their website, I'd say so. The move to Taiwan for the production of the Bleriot seems to say so as well. If just 5% of the yahoos riding around town on mountain bikes switched to the far more practical/faster/comfortable type of bicycles Rivendells sells; business would be very good for Rivendell indeed.

Rivendell frames, Atlantis frames, the woman who didn't like hers
 

There are many nice touring bikes out there. Surley, BGordon, Adventure Cycle, old Treks, new Treks, customs and limited hand-builts. Too many to list. The Atlantis may not be for everybody, but it is a well-thought out frame, and well over 99 percent of the people who own one like it a lot. The one woman who brought hers back--a nice woman, a local--she felt something in the bike that nobody here could detect, and we changed tires on it, and the last I heard (until her sister's post) was that she had a great time in Europe on it. Wrote a nice thank you note, sent pictures. I thought all was good.

Bikes aren't swirling clouds of mystery that are out to trick you with decals and reputation. They're platforms for parts and, ultimately, a position. There are certain elements of frame design, geometry, and handling qualities that have proven to work pretty darn well over the years, and the Atlantis does not forge any new paths in that regard. It is boringly tried and true, but any rider plucked at random out of a stadium full of riders, may in fact get on a bike (Atlantis or otherswise) and declare it "Squirrely" or "sluggish" or a dozen other subjective and un-nailable perjoratives, and as a designer or maker, there's no answer to it. It's "what they feel," and if they are the only ones who've felt it, and if nobody else can feel it, you still can't (as a seller) deny it.

So you think on it, try to figure it out, put everything you know and everybody who has experience to work on why this one customer is "sensing" the thing they are sensing. And you do this sincerely, and respectfully, and you try things. Maybe that person is more sensitive to something than anybody else is, and maybe a slight change here or there will solve it.

Short bikes fall faster than tall bikes. That is a fact. It's why when you're an adult riding a kid's bike, it feels to instantly floppy side-to-side. And so it is with short touring bikes, too. On our bikes, on our shorter bikes, I address that to some degree (and it seems to work well) with longer chainstays. Heavier wheels make a bike more resistant to turning, and in the case of the woman who at one point didn't like her Atlantis, bigger tires seemed to improve it.

As for the quality of any bike......most of today's bikes are pretty decent. Regardless of material, they are earnestly made and hold up well for the most part, and nothing I'm familiar with warrants any super harsh criticism.

An Atlantis or any other Rivendell is an honest bike that's has been built/born only after I've put everything I know and believe into every detail of it. In the best of cases, and in most cases, people like them. But...there are lots of other fine bikes out there, too.

I'm on orders to stay off a keyboard as much as possible, and I never go on lists (don't have the stomach for it, frankly). But one of the members here suggested I peek in and say something, and...for better or worse, I think I have. It's not the last word on anything, but it is--what it is.
Best to all,

Grant (Rivendell guy who doesn't actually braze the frames, a fact I've always been up front about)

One last thing.....I hadn't planned on linking anything to our (Rivendell) site, but I just got an email from the admin here, looks like a boilerplate email, suggesting I do/saying I could. I don't know how to actually make links, but the site is
www.rivbike.com
And it may answer some questions about any of our frames. Any questions it doesn't answer, just call 925 933 7304 or 800 345 3918, or email me directly. Sometimes it saves time to do to the sources..is all. Please forgive in advance any short answers. I'm not too busy to reply at length, just trying to give my tendons or whatever a rest.
Best,
Grant/Rivendell

No, the Rivendell is the oldest model and is their flagship model that started the Rivendell company, it's their top of the line model; Atlantis is their 3rd model after the now sold off brand of Heron was developed. By the way Heron is another excellent bike frame.

To make it even more clear, Rivendell's are custom models where as the Rambouillet, Atlantis, AHH and others are production bikes made overseas, and are less expensive.

Wow, Grant Peterson posts right here on the Touring forum and nobody seems to notice. Or maybe they are speechless.

I appreciate him taking the time to post.

wow
 

I was surprised.........I just hope my comments were encouraging enough to nullify some of the criticisms. Valid criticism done with respect in an effort to help is one thing but shameless ragging never does anything but create bad vibes. Go Riv! Git er done! Lovin my new Schwalbe uber fatty 700x40mm's.

So by what handle is he posting under?

"gpatriv"

Gee, you read that stuff and one is just lifted and carried away by the hyperbole, I've been floating in a fog of rhetoric ever since.

One thing I love about the Riv site is the ability to check out the available old school parts. I know none of that stuff actually works any more (see the freewheel debate over the last few years), maybe the Y2K bug really did affect something, but it's nice to look.

Rivendell's parts don't work?

either nuts or antagonist
 

Thats an obvious statement born out of ignorance. If their "old school designed parts" (which not all of them are ) worked in the past why wouldn't they now?
I have two bikes with freewheels and IRD is re-making them again. There are several good reasons for using fewer cogs. I plan on a Phil rear hub with a 6 or 7 speed and a dishless configuration. :eek:

Irony.

Actually, I'd be surprised to receive any non-functioning product from them or any other bike parts retailer. If you ordered something from Nashbar that didn't work, you'd send it back, right? Why not Riv?

I'm going to ask here what you bought that didn't work. As a rule, they don't really sell components that have a history of needing a trip to the LBS to repair once they wear out. They're not really into the latest indexed, 10 or 11-cog forged unobtanium componentry, so I call BS on your contention that nothing they sell works. It may not work with the newfangled 1 1/8" threadless setups and clearance-lacking frames currently ruling the sales legders, but it works fine with the 1" threaded, standard-reach, sensibly-built frames they sell, as well as frames of the same description that you can find all over eBay.

I will put my 2centsworth regarding Riv stuff/philosophy. When I started riding for real in the early 70's, I had a UO-8 and eventually Motobecane Grand Touring, I just rode those bikes in comfort as commuters and touring bikes. I did not think much about them. When I had 3 small kids my riding was mostly limited to a used Bianchi cross bike and a Burley kid hauler. When I started to get more kid free time, I thought it would be fun to get a new bike. I bought a Bianchi Eros. I rode it and after a few miles I was not comfortable, shoulder/neck pain (yes I was older, less flexible..). I suffered and could figure out why. When I rode my Moto, I was more comfortable. One day I stumbled onto the Riv site and catalog. It made me think about things, and then I realized what was goin on. My Eros was sold to me too small frame, with racing mentality salespeople, unlike my bigger UO/Moto frames. Crap, I said, and despite various modifications it never was comfortable. However, if the frame had been larger, it would have been more comfortable. Yes, a racing type frame would not have probably mattered in my youth, but I wonder if it would have been as comfortable as the Moto after many miles. My Moto got some modifications, but mostly for something different. I put Mustache HB with Dirt drop stem, and it was even more comfortable (higher bars). Eventually, due to a gift coupon from Nashabar, I bought their road Fra-May. Funny frame in this day and age, since it had 1 inch headtube and a more classic geometry vs. the compact geo you see more now. I built it up using a Riv guided outlook: Mustache HB, Nitto dirt drop stem, compact crank NOS Ritchey 46/34 low Q with 8 spd 12-32 cassette for wide range for hills. The frame was bigger then what would size in most shops (the 58 cm was more like a 59). It fit great, rode nicely in comfort. Yes the frame is total 7005 alum, non lugged/steel, hard to fender, and with 25mm tire (probably could not be any wider) going against a Riv grain. However, fit overcame other stuff like frame material/tire size. I realized that fit is #1, a bad fit steel frame is not a good as a Riv style fit aluminum frame. Oh yes, about saddles. When I was riding in Europe in the late 70's with my Moto, the original saddle was like hell, wore out, and I got a leather Ideale saddle in a French bike shop (the only one they had....) Well it was comfort from day one. I have Brooks B17 as my standard road saddle now, wonderful on the bottom. I still have the Ideale on the Moto, and it is still going strong. When I rode my last Century last year, I had more people look at my bike with mustache bars and B17. Some got it and some did not. My friends on the ride had one main complaint, sore butts and sore shoulders. When I look at their bikes, too small frames, racer saddles. I would bet a bigger frame and B17 would help them greatly. Again, they were sold a bill of goods inspired by the 1% racer types, but not fit for the rest of the 99% riders. So pick what you want from Riv, high bars, larger frames, leather saddles, better practical gearing, and comfort without sacrificing much speed will be the reward. My beef with Riv is not with their frames, but with the affordability factor. I wish I could get one of their frames, but at their prices my wife would be on my butt in sticker shock, crying their goes the kids college tuition.... GP needs to work on more affordable frames. He has started in that direction with the Bleriot, almost making it affordable to buy the frame and build it up. He needs to get a similar 700cc road bike at a lower price start. However, to his credit, his philosophy has started to trickle down to the masses, see the compact cranks and attemps at more comfortable bikes being more common. In conclusion, whenever I see a bike I think fit, practicality, and comfort above all else. Thank you for the rant...

I'm not really sure why he would do that. Surly makes some pretty decent steel bikes for the lower price point end of the market. A LHT or Cross Check frame can be purchased and you can "go Rivendell-ish" on the parts you hang on it. You'll end up with a great bike at a reasonable price.

This is my first post on this board. I recently stumbled on the Riv site too. I don't agree with everything espoused there but there is a common sense message that is hard to argue with. I used to race years ago (was not very good but it was a lot of fun) and have been through the too small frame game too. I have a Jamis Exile 29er ordered from my LBS that will be morphed into a 1x9 with dropped bars, B-17 etc. I was looking for a comfortable fun bike for fire trails and hard sandy stuff. Did this B4 I saw the Riv site...but bought a Bleroit frame for a decent price on the big auction place because I think it will be a great, comfortable road ride.....and I like steel. :-) I'll get a lot of parts from Riv because the prices are pretty competitive..though it may be a little while till it happens.

This looks like a nice ride too: http://kogswell.com/index.html

I have a similar background as you and it appears we're about the same age. I use to race and my first bike was a Trek TX900 that used the top of the line columbus tubeset but found the tubing to flexy. I sold the bike to buy a better car because the girls didn't appreciate a fine bike and a junker car!! But I race it for a couple of years and faired well considering I was working full time and attending college full time which meant my training hours were limited whereas the guys I raced with trained full time because their parents supported them. I never bought into the smaller frame BS that the LBS's tried to sell me on.

I just bought a Mercian Vincitore with touring specs and 853 tubing that was completly customed built English made bike for just about the same price as the production Atlantis which I had considered. The Mercian is a very comfortable ride even after having them use 3" long spearpoint lugs to beef up the bottom bracket and fork crown (I did this because I felt the longer wheelbase could lend to flexing the bottom bracket more then I would be willing to accept when cranking hard). I had other options I customed for the bike too that the Atlantis would not have been able to do. Like you, I too went with the B17 saddle because for touring and long rides it would be the most comfortable-once broken in which right now it isn't.

Personally I hate the looks of the Kogswell it looks too industrial, like something I would see riding in China by the masses!!!

There was better touring bike then the one I got or the Atlantis but I couldn't afford it so passed on it made by Robert Beckman called the Sakkit Expedition, I think this is the best one on the market from any manufacture but it's just too much to justify purchasing it then watch it get banged up on a tour. http://www.coinet.com/~beckman/bikeframes.html

The Sakkit is designed to take the bangs and keep on truckin'. If you'd like, they can paint it a really ugly color for you so you won't feel so bad if it gets scratched. ;)

B17, I'm joking. They sell stuff like freewheel hubs by Phil that have been described here as still on offer because Phil made too many of them in the past. I think it's a great hub, but Riv should try making that case here sometime.

Sakkit is an interesting case, I don't think their frames are all that expensive. The average quality MTB in my local store is 2-4K for a completely non-custom bike, serious bike. The one downside of ordering a Sakkit is the options list, it's incomprehensibly long and varied, and could end up really costing you. THe weak link in all that kind of thing is the purchaser, what he thinks he needs or the maker guesses he needs is rarely that well developed. So you can spend a lot of money without a lot of a clue. Another worry I have is that there really aren't many Sakkits made. There is a huge claim of quality etc... but from what I hear it isn't really in contact with enough users, or varied enough users. The total number of bikes made may be very small. I don't have good numbers obviously, I heard a number very short of 100. It may be totally false. Other folks doing similar kinds of serious bikes are Arvon, Thorn, Bruce Gordon, Mather, and so forth. Most bike types have changed a lot in the last 50 years. Touring bikes have changes possibly the least, at least in the US. Look at the LHT it is fairly classic. The Riv moreso. Concept growth is occuring elsewhere.