Just to throw a monkey wrench in and hopefully not to upset the apple cart - I have a Soma Saga that I love for touring, I tried to set it up for road but the geometry is to relaxed and for a big guy like me it was tough to stay out of the wind and in the draft. The Saga is stout and it carried my 240 plus another 40 on a few trips. The Saga is equipped with ultregra bar ends and XT derailiers, Xt wheels and a Coda double mountain crank. Love it for touring. Comfortable and stable!!!! I also have a Soma Stanyan and it is my go to bike, I'm going to do the Skyline Drive out and back later in May and it be my four day machine. I love the Stanyan on group rides, long rides, and I'm looking forward to it doing exactly what I need on this short tour. Just for what it's worth. The problem with the Stanyan is that it take long reach road brakes and that limits tire selection. I ride 25's but I think it will take 32's the way I have it set up. The set up is ultegra 10 speed shifters, cranks, fD, and 105 long cage RD - I use both a 11-28 and 12-30 cassette depending on where I'm riding. The brakes are cane creek long reach.

Sorry didn't realize this was such an old thread - hope you've made up your mind by now

The Saga looks like a great dedicated touring rig, but for all around riding it's a tank. I'm 5'9", 160#s, so even fully loaded my total payload would be around 200#s. The Saga would probably be overkill since it's not very efficient for unladden riding.

I think I might just go with the Cross-check. It's a bit more burley than the double-cross, and would work fine as a touring bike for someone my size.

So the Surly is burly, how so?

The frame is a bit heavier, and it's my understanding it's built to be pretty rugged. While they're both technically XC bikes, they're really more general purpose road bikes. The dbl X does have a littler better tubing though, but that's not a big deal to me.

I have both a Crosscheck and a Double cross, and they ride just about the same to me. If anything, the CC rides a bit smoother, but that may just be psychological (I've had the CC longer and generally like it better). The finish work on the CC (braze ons, finish) is a bit nicer as well.

Double Cross wouldn't work for me. But it was due to big feet (size 13/48) and the wheelbase wasn't long enough for me to not strike the panniers. Otherwise it's a fantastic frame.

Hmm, that's interesting. I compared the geometry of the two bikes, and the Double Cross seemed a bit more relaxed; it has a longer wheel-base and head-tube - not a huge difference, but that would seems to make it a bit more stable, with a more upright riding position.

Virtually everything else I've read indicates the Double Cross frame is a bit better. Supposedly, the tubing and finish is a bit nicer. I'd be curious to hear other comparisons between the two...

I absolutely detest semi-horizontal dropouts.
That was why I went with the DoubleCross instead of the Crosscheck.

You didn`t misread about the cranks, Alan. It`s in the FAQ, and thanks for reporting cause I was kind of wondering why also.

They have long TTs or short STs? Aren`t those two situations just two different ways of looking at the same geo? Anyway, Since I`m short legged with a longer torso, long and low is the way for me. I`ve had bikes with a decent fit but too high standover, and it`s kind of awkward at times. Makes those red lights seem a lot slower to turn green

I love my soma double cross. It's a rock solid bike. While I haven't toured on it, I have done a lot of touring and I wouldn't hesitate to use it on a tour if it were properly set up.

No prob. And just to be clear, I think it might be an error; I emailed Soma, and they told me it will take mtb cranks. This makes sense: If it's going to be used for touring, you'd want smaller chain rings.

Yeah, while this does make a easier to set up as a SS, it can make removing the rear tire a PITA. My understanding is that it's not a a big deal as long as you aren't running super-big rubber.

In terms of the geometry, the differences are pretty negligible. As far as I can tell, the only differences are the wheelbase and head-tube lengths - they're both about 1/2" on the dbl X. This wouldn't seem to make much difference as far as I can tell, but I'd love to hear from someone with a more informed perspective...

I'm glad I'm not the only one here that feels this way. Mine is a paranoia of the rear axle slipping and/or poor alignment adding something else that can go wrong to Mr. Murphy here.

My hate comes from experience. The bike I once used for commuting had them, and way too many times I found myself waiting at a stop sign for a gap in busy traffic; The gap would appear; I would stomp on the pedals; And find myself stuck in the middle of the intersection, because the drive side of the axle had slipped forward, wedging the tire against the frame. And this was an *internal* cam skewer tightened to the max.

Me too.

I wouldn't use a horizontal dropout frame for a derailleur-geared bike unless I had no alternative, and then I'd use a Surly Tugnut or similar device to prevent rear wheel slipping.

The short-lived Salsa Casseroll had this problem. I remember reading multiple complaints of rear wheel slipping on a forum, where the Salsa reps blamed it on weak QR skewers, and nothing to do with horizontal dropouts, as it was never mentioned.

I laughed when I read this seconds after my last post.

I had a Schwinn Le Tour that would do this to me in busy University rush-hour traffic. I jury-rigged a fix with an additional bolt and nut as an axle position lock.

Never been an issue on my CC. I really like the dropouts on it, but then again, I run it fixed quite a bit of the time. Still, it's nice to be able to easily throw on a downtube shifter, a geared wheel, and have a different bike.

I`m with the vertical lovers for fender reasons, too. Not a deal killer, though- just preference. I had one bike wih semi horizontals + fenders, and was able to remove and install the wheel with inflated tire, but had to keep the fender bolted tightly to the back of the CS bridge rather than a nice uniform distance all the way around the wheel, so just an asthetic quibble for that setup.

And my motor doesn`t yank a wheel from where it`s clamped, so no worries for me there unless somebody spikes my Wheaties

I am riding a pake c'mute and have never had this issue happen to me. my frame as well as the cross-check allow for adjustment screws to be inserted into the frame so its as simple as butting the axle to the screws and clamp down your skewer... and I would assume this would help prevent what your guys are talking about.

I love the dropouts and although regular vertical dropouts are easier and more care free, I like the ability to adjust my wheelbase according to the riding im doing.

I never thought of that. Do you do it often?

I think if chain torque pulls a wheel, it`d pull it forward, so those adjustment screws are probably the wrong direction to prevent that issue.

Correct.

Well that is more about simple and consistent setting of the rear wheel in the dropouts... Being able to properly align the rear wheel will give you a more positive grip when tightening your rear skewer... If your rear wheel is askew (even a little) than you really only have the friction holding your wheel in place at two points on both sides of the skewer, whereas when it is properly aligned wheel will have the entire circumference of the skewers nuts and hub making positive contact with the dropouts.

Who knows though, maybe I'm just not manly enough to pull my hub loose lol.. (FYI I’m a 235lbs guy keeping up with A rides on my steel commuter..)

When I first got the bike, I messed around with it a bit andended up where I am at now (On the sorter end) due to the bke feeling a tad bit snappier if you will. I am considering dropping them back while i'm touring, but I like how you have some room to work with from the start either way. And the ability to run it single-speed will come in handy during cyclocross season if i'm in the mood to change it up.

But hey, if your riding style/ alignment methods/ or whatever cause your rear hub to slip, they hell, go for the vertical dropout, I'm mearly explaining how they work for me..

Can you really tell a difference in your ride when you adjust that set screw and hence your wheel base by maybe one centimeter? That's an adjusment of less than 1% to your total wheel base. And do you then adjust your chain length at the same time?

Whoa whoa whoa.... were talking more along the lines of 3cm lol, and all i can say is that I felt the bike being a bit more livley beneath me with it closer to the front.. Not saying that it wasn't purely in my mind , but thats the conclusion I came to....