Wow, lots of great feedback eh
 

Wow...let me see if I can get some questions answered...

Ricohman... The bb height is roughly the same as traditional mtbs which Luser mentioned. The curve tubes on the Street models frame are the only difference from the Dynamik model which is also an extremely potent mtb:
http://spincyclz.com/images/DynamikPro08L_1_.jpg

You can certainly pedal through corners, and stay planted through quick singletrack tapping into the torque for quick sprint at will...which is very satisfying. Yes, the more upright torso exposes you to more headwinds, but you can lean on the bars if your back and other parts will take it.

Robow... yup, the chainstays are about 9" longer, and a straight shot without any curves like regular mtbs stays that have to clear the crank and tire. I mounted a chain catcher with the tooth oriented upwards to keep the chain from buzzing my Crank Forward "CF" mtb http://spincyclz.com/images/IMG_5281.JPG and wedging between the chainguard and tire.

Sykerocker... getting a demo ride is the only way to really apprieciate what RANS has done with this design. I offer 1 week and month long demo opportunities for local customers, so they can put a bike through it's paces before making the investment. Some of the customers in the lower right corner of the homepage under Spin Stat's are listed as "Demo Hosts" and if one is in your area I can hook you for a ride, since there are not many CF dealers out there yet. RANS also offers a direct ship program, with a full refund less shipping if it doesn't work out. Here is a little article about CF touring. The Cruz and Fusion models have a chopper-esque feel, but not the pork of most style over substance offerings. They also have the more extreme CF geometry where the hip/torso angle is more closed allowing more stealth power when needed. This article highlights some of the changes for 2008 (as CF's were only introduced a few years ago), and shows the lower longer geometry Fusion and lime green Cruz, and the new PEP finish 18.5lb Zenetik Pro (a hybrid work combining Zen and Kenetic)http://www.ransbikes.com/images/Zpro08L.jpg
Some riders do feel lower back or butt pain in their "sit bones" so it definitely is not for everybody, but 90% of folks I have serviced found one that worked for them. Half the CF buyers are recumbent riders looking for what they left behind in their road biking younger days, and the other are folks tired of the traditionally marketed racing geometry. There can be an acclimation period, usually 2 months or 200 miles.

Vik... there are about 1 1/3rd lengths of chain on the CF bikes, and it doesn't move as much as you'd think, unless you are off road and love thrashing around. Anytime your feeling the CF itch I'd be happy to entertain you, or loan you a demo for an extended period so you can relay the experience on your blog eh :)

Booger1... wish I could agree with you, but everytime I spend just a mere minute on a friends road or mtb, all the pains come back....guess I've gotten spoiled. Seat belts are optional, and might actually improve the bunny-hopability of the CF mtbs :p No risk of dumping off the rear. The rear wt. bias is actually right where you want to be on hairy down hill mtb descents, and the rough bumps merely "paddle" your arse, not really transferring the blows...so a full rear suspension would be overkill with this geometry...but fun to experiment with.

Jamawani... thx, not done yet. I name all the custom builds after call girls, the red one opening the thread is Sonia. We also have Ruby, Tavia, Candy, Cloe, Petra, Crystal...shown here. I try not to "sell bikes" just play the conduit to the factory making them accessible, with a "try it you might like it" attitude, and if something tickles you we'll go from there. Most of the clientele gets the adult humor, like the Ex-Lovers Page "...still fun to ride, but you've found something better"...Used bikes sounds sooo generic :D

Nun... your handle says it all, no back pain to speak of even after my first full century...zero, zip, nada, nun

Tehk... I could put you in touch with a CF owner/customer in Culver City that could give you a taste? Here is the bike you could ride which the customer built up from a raw alloy Zenetik frame set and used his Giant OCR road bike as a parts donor:
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...erBarsDown.jpg

Ricohman... cruiser in appearance only and not much else would likely better apply to the longer lower Fusion an Cruz. There are a variety of stem riser heights, curved risers and handlebars to get the front end ergo's dialed into the riders preferences. I find the Nitto Northroad bars work really well on the road bikes, and like a completely flat bar on the mtb's for more forward weight bias in loose conditions. Also had 14 moto's before taking one spill on my Suziki V-Strom DL1000 and then getting back into cycling. Actually it's tough to wheelie a CF, due to the extended wheelbase...I've tried, and those that have loaded the front with luggage, or handlebar bags have reported slightly more stable handling with a more even wt. distribution.

BikEthan... thx for the feed back. I chose the Street frame because it has the beefy down tube, and I liked the fact that the cables are fully jacketed from the shifters to BB, keeping the road crude out. Only chose the Avid BB7 discs, for ease of wheel swapping if the customer wanted to run 26's, and like their all around performance once the pads are broken in, and the down hill and wet weather confidence they instill. I am also 235lbs :o and could agree with you on the 36h hub suggestion. If I was going to go with a more traditional wheelset, I'd order up a Velocity OCR with Shimano XT non disc hubs built up by Rich Lesnik at Rivendell who also has his side biz Hands On Wheels and does great wheel work. Regarding the Shimano aero levers, I think they are perfectly paired with the Nitto Moustache bars, and have seen and ridden several of them on the Rivendell models.

Luser... which CF model do you have? I've only seen on Zenetik setup with drop bars, and might try it sometime, if I think my wrists can take it. Thanks for the bb measurement...

Ricohman... I have thick skin so your honest opinion and those of others are all welcome. Anything new or outside the box usually meets resistance, and people naturally speculate about the performance, comfort, ergo's, hanlding, wheeliness, aero-ness etc. without any seat time, but that's the best they can do until they've planted there booty on one and cranked it.

Staehpj1... check the Spinsiders listed on the lower right of the homepage, and there might be a demo host in your area that'll give you some seat time. Aren't you near Bikes at Vienna, a cool east coast shop that I believe stocks CF's? I went to the United Bicycle Instutite and shared bench time with John the owner of B.a.V. As I mentioned earlier there are a wide array of front end configurations to get the desired riding position for long term comfort. Yes, the CoG is lower, and on the more upright geometry Cf's(which includes every model except the Fusion and Cruz) you can certainly unweight the seat, stand up, and pedal if you wish. I always take photo's when customers come to demo, and try to get their profile shots so they can see there body geometry between the different models...several pix here

Slabshaft... thx, you can't get excatly the same kind of road bike power/hustle going as you would when sprinting while holding the drops on a road bike (which you can usually only do for a minute or two or just in short bursts), but you can tap into that same power at any time while fully seated. Some CF riders believe they can generate more power by pulling themselves into the pedal stroke, where standing only lets you leverage the crank with gravity...hard to explain without some demo seat time.

Luser... yes, there are several advantages of CF over bents, portability/transporting, climbing ability, price, ride height in traffic...just to name a few. As you've mentioned the wide seat pan allows you move about to change your pedal stroke or relieve the rear on a longer ride, rather then being locked into the same 4 square inches of a traditional saddle space. Off road on steeper climbs or in loose rubble, I'll ride up on the front edge to shorten my pedal reach and get some quick torque, and on the downhills I'll slide back to keep weight on the rear in fast sweepers. Advantages over road bikes are basically softer ergonomics for the upper bod and lower back, and more real estate to support the load on the rear. Also the laser etched seat posts have in-seam numbers which are pretty accurate, so you can loan your ride out to your SO or a friend and get them setup quickly, or get it back to your setting fast. The seat system also has a second quick release under the seat pan to adjust the tilt if the edge is cutting into your thighs etc.
http://www.shoprans.com/images/BPST0147G.jpg

Fueled by Boh... traction point...where was that mentioned? Actually the mtb CF like the Dynamik models are awesome off-road, and in fact all I ride on a weekly basis. The longer wheelbase makes it extremely tough to get the rear end loose, and naturally softens the landing off small jumps without a mess of pivots and linkages.

CrankFranky... my parts vendor only stocks 175mm mtb cranksets. As a small part-time operation I have a harder time getting in with QBP or BTi, since I run out of a low overhead storage space during my lunch hours at the day job (mechanical engineer), with emails in the evenings and demo's on the weekends. One notable resource for shortened cranks is Mark Stonich at Bikesmith Designs. He offers cranks down to 155mm and even shorter if needed.

Luser... I wish I was in shape to race at Sea Otter, might sign up for the mtb 20mi tour, if I can break away from the demo booth. I used to mtb a lot around Mt. Tam in Marin through high school and junior college on the Cannondale Killer V with the Manitou EFC fork...man that was awhile back... Also used to row on the crew team in high school which built the quads and other parts, keeping fitness way up, but never did more then one mtb race, which was a Squaw Valley event (that was a lung burner). I've been shaking off the pounds with the last couple months with mtb riding, and would like to have a goal to compete in a couple x-country or cyclo-cross events in the next 12 mo's.

RANS is sharing a booth with Rad-Innovations and I am prepping all the CF's and transporting them to and from the show. I'll be there Wed-Sun (my first time) and will be camping on-site...should be a blast. I am currently testing the steel prototype Dynamik Sequoia which was built for the 6'+ crowd with even a longer wheelbase and longer cockpit. This bike will also be at the show, and RANS is hoping to get some feedback from the taller riders out there.

Started with a Wow and ending with a Wow, as it took well over an hour to get all the content for this phattie reply. Hope I got the questions answered, if not bring'm on eh...(gotta go pee now :p)

Is it possible to see some pics (side views) of the bike with rider?
I would like to see one pic of a rider standing while pedaling, one pic tucked (headwind), and one pic with the riders butt just a bit off the seat like when you want to use the legs as shocks (train track ect).
As a 43 year old rider I will often stand to stretch and pedal this way for a mile or two. Gives my body a break on long days.
I would also like to see pics of the bikes with the shorter stems.

I'll work on getting those photo's Ricohman. Thought I'd have some progress shots to share of the build by now, but been swamped getting bikes ready for Sea Otter, and waiting for a few more parts (not the mention the stellar riding weather out west).

I know how to improve traction, I just don't hear anyone complaining about their road touring bike's lack of traction. Using improved traction as a selling point for something that is impractical (can't reasonably bunny hop it, manual it, or un-weight individual wheels) for off road use doesn't make sense to me. That was my point.

The bike is beautiful and it looks beautiful when loaded up for touring. I rode a friend's "Beach Cruiser" once, with similarly kicked out pedals, and it seemed to me exquisitely comfortable, like no bike I'd ever been on. Still and all, I once had a cruiser style motorcycle (Magna) and having one's weight on the butt can get to be very painful after several hours. In sum, I think it is almost certainly a really great, lovable bicycle for around town use or a morning's ride but I'd have to try it for at least a weekend's excursion before I'd trust it not to be a butt-breaker. Passing that test, I'd probably be happy to buy one, if I was in the market for a bike.

I think it's neat looking and I like the out of box thinking, but it seems to me to be a solution in search of a problem.

It's still impractical to you. I already said that you can bunny hop it, but it's also the easiest bike to unweight the front wheel. With all the weight in the back, your front wheel is light and nimble making technical climbing a breeze. I'm unsure as to what a manual is, even though a riding buddy has said that I've done the biggest manual he's ever seen on the Dynamik. This bike has made the "ordinary" bike impractical to me. If all you do on a mountain bike is bunny hop then I guess this bike is impractical for you.

Nanda, if you don't do the race then see if you can cajole some other CF rider to do it. I think it's important to have some race stats to back the bikes up.

I don't use drop bars, nanda, I use aero bars attached to flat bars.

I can't speak for that style of bike on long rides but the biggest problem I see is that a touring bike needs to have a little bit of off road ability so that you can cover necessary dirt roads if required. And it needs to be able to do so in muddy conditions. I'm sure you might be able to rig up some kind of fenders but the bike is going to stall out in even small degrees of mud because of insufficient tire clearance. I would go with a smaller wheel to allow more tire clearance. It looks to me like the frame is designed for 26 inch wheels and I think it would be better for it to have those on it. Even if you can rig some kind of fenders they won't have much clearance which is needed to get through bad conditions you might get caught in.

robow, I thought it was looking for a problem too until I put some time on it. Here's a brief list of problems solved and created by the crankforward.

- The most important problem solved for me is comfort and fun. I don't find straddle saddle comfortable and fun. I wouldn't be mountainbiking today if it weren't for the crankforward. On the days when I can find comfort on a SPECIALIZED, TREK, or CANNONDALE, I still can't find the fun.

- Another problem solved by the crankforward design is safety. With the lower and further back CoG, I'm not likely to pitch myself over the bars.

-A third solution created by the crankforward design is simplicity. Most mountainbikes today are equipped with complicated suspension systems that really turn me off. I like the purity and feel of a fully-rigid bike. I haven't been able to ride a straddle saddle version of the fully-rigid off-road since I was a teenager.

- The major problem that was created by the crankforward design is that I have some self-hatred for participating in the mainstream cycling world. I purchased many straddle saddle bikes in the past, pumping thousands into the pockets of lazy incompetant designers.

Components are great. If the CF design works for you bud, then great!

Personally, I would have skipped the disc brakes.

I would have thought that standing would be difficult. But I just watched the video ... it looks a bit cramped but still acceptable.

Well that convinced me that Robow's take on this was correct...

Not an issue for me. So not a selling point.

Again not a real problem for me so not really a selling point.

Again not an issue for me. FWIW: there was no such thing as a mountain bike when I was a teenager :)

That sounds like a bunch of BS. Even if we accepted that these crank forward bikes are the latest thing since sliced bread, which I doubt, that doesn't make designers who design other stuff lazy or incompetent. Give us a break!

X2

It seem to be a halfway house between a regular bike and a full recumbent. Whenever I've gone on rides with recumbent bikes they have been slower than the upright bikes. If the crankforward works for you that's fine and I'd be interested to give one a try, but I cannot imagine that it would be any more comfortable than a relaxed geometry regular bike and certainly no faster

We have guests over often ... these include grandparents. It has crossed my mind that these bikes might be better suited as spares for these guests. Apparently they can fit a wider range of people than a typical upright and both feet can touch the floor while seated.

If you don't have a need for the crankforward then don't buy one. It never fails that the bike industry reps will respond with a freakish defense mechanism, whenever confronted with technology. If it's not a solution to a problem for you then please don't waste your time saying so. I feel that there's some curiousity towards the bike, yet not everyone can afford proper knowledge, so they respond negatively. I find that cycling can be viewed as a solution looking for a problem because walking works just fine. But saying so doesn't add any color to the conversation because such things are too obscure to improve the dialogue. Sorry for the rant, Bikeforums.net might improve it's readership with open-mindedness.

What a crock! You posted this:
and then you b!tch when a few people dare to question the superiority of the new and apparently niche approach of CF designs.

If there was way to test one I would.
I think this would be a good way to get my wife back into cycling.
She is intimidated by road bikes since she gained weight with the last pregnancy, and her back is sore.
I think the relaxed laid back riding position would be good for her and being able to put her feet down would be a plus.

Back from Sea Otter, what a blast except for the afternoon wind and dust. I'll get some pix up on my site in the next couple days. Lots of positive comments from the visiting demo riders...

Ricohman, RANS has a direct ship demo program, basically just cover the cost of shipping both ways if it doesn't work out (fyi, they've had a 0 return rate last time I asked :).

For the essential crank forward experience I'd recommend the original Fusion model (26lbs, $995), if she would prefer to stick with recreational road riding, and have a bike that is simply fun to ride. If she wants to venture off-road then the Dynamik ($26lbs $1025) or Dynamik Trail (30lbs $1495) would be more suitable. If your lady is less then 5'3" then they offer a no cost short frame option where 1.5" of seat tube material are removed to get the seat height down even lower. My wife rides a shorty Fusion and shorty Zenetik Road, and now wants to try mountain biking (since I showed her a photo taken on my favorite singletrack and she was curious where I took it, and I said ...ah you'll never go there ;)...all this in the past couple months. I keep her recumbent at the shop for customer demo's, and have gotten her addicted to the easy to use CF bikes, and now she is riding 4x week 10-15miles per outing.

I guess the "problem" would be sore neck, wrists, lower back, crotch etc. served up by the traditional geometry, at least that's what customers are telling me. I found recumbents after a small motorcycling accident that tagged my right fibula, wrist and shoulder. After a short recovery putting slicks on my Cannondale Killer V hardtail still wasn't comfortable after more then 30 minutes. Once I saw the CF bikes at Interbike 05' and again in 06' I knew Randy at RANS was on to something. My local recumbent dealer had no interest in stocking them as they were not really recumbents at all, so I asked Randy if I could try a small part-time distributorship, and see where it goes. 2.5yrs and 100+ customers later, it's starting to turn a small profit, still keeps me out of trouble :p (eliminates the motorcycle urges), and I never have to justify to the wife why we have 25+ bikes at our disposal.

The most satisfying part of the business, beyond offering relief to an aging yet vibrant clientele, is doing custom builds...like blank canvas with a frameset and the parts catalog. It brings back the creativity I used to enjoy in my advanced ceramics classes back in high school and junior college, and offers another medium for self/health expression.

Sorry, but every time I look at those bikes I throw up a little bit in my mouth.

Nanda, keep up the good work! I've followed your build-ups of these RANS crank forward bikes with interest, in a couple of different crank forward forums. Best wishes, and ignore comments like the one above.

I can see how this bike would be an alternative to a recumbent bike, to be used as a pavement cruiser, but I cannot picture how this bike could be considered a technical trail bike. For one, the wheelbase appears much longer than a standard mtb, and with increased length in the chainstays you would increase flex. Also, when climbing steep hills on a mtb, it is a fine balancing of weight between the rear wheel for traction and the front wheel to keep it on the ground. While this bike would certainly allow for weight to be over the rear wheel, I don't see how you could keep the front wheel planted while pedalling. I also wonder about the effectiveness of a suspension for on the bike due to the rake of the front forks. It seems very little weight would be distributed over the forks to actuate the suspension, plus the force of a bump would likely be on a different plane that the suspension fork is set at.

I commend the OP for presenting these bikes and asking for comments. He appears to have found issues with conventional bike designs and is offering a solution to these issues. I don't really understand Mr. Lusor's apparent attack on the cycling world though. Each to their own, I suppose.

No worries, and thanks for the support rnorris. When I first red that post my instinctive internal reply was that Matt's mild case of acid reflux would also be easily resolved my the more upright geometry :p

I thrive on resistance, because it means that the gears are turning in the readers heads, and I know the design has merit after 18 years of cycling on all types of 2 wheelers, and many recumbents (which are useless off-road). If someone didn't think out side the box or recycle the box, we'd all be riding the same style of bike (oh wait, most of us are...doh). Evolution is a slooooow process, and working closing with RANS to introduce the crank forward concept has a lot of parallel to my early work at start-ups in "the valley" (innovative ideas gaining momentum fueled by lots of hope and hard work, tempered with a little pesimistic doubt, and plenty excitement as things mature... the rewards to follow).

D-Fuzz, wish I could give you a taste (whereabouts are you located, I might have a customer in your hood) of my custom Dynamik with XT bitz, Sugino touring crank, and Schwable Smart Sam tires. It gets me to the trails fairly quickly on the road, climbs effeciently and up steeper slopes that I'd wheelie a regular mtb, and is super stable on fast descents and loose trails. There rear stays a thick and beefy with little flex. The front end is not as lite as you'd imagine, and you have to work to get the front end up with it's 9" longer wheelbase. I added the front shock on my personal bike after several rides with an alloy disc fork. The ridgid fork has plenty of feel, but I need more give on the downhills, so the Rock Shox SID Race is a welcome addition and only a 1.5lb difference from the 900g stock fork. There are several handlebar and stem riser combo's to experiment with, and I prefer having more weight on the front end, so the UNO flat bar with 4° of sweep keeps the front end more loaded for the descents.

More to come on this build and others, as they develop. Thanks for all the feedback (good, bad n' ugly).

Here is post detailing my personal test lab Tavia, a custom Dynamik built up from a frame set...shown below (now with Ergon carbon barended grips). Any local SF Bf'ers are welcome to borrow her for a week, and ride her hard, she always comes back begging for more...

http://spincyclz.com/images/IMG_59572.JPG