Critique my build
 

I've put together what I think could be a special touring rig for a potential customer from OZ arriving in May for a cross country trip. Yesterday was a great day to get out and put some initial break-in miles on "Sonia." Been trolling the touring section for awhile and hoping to glean some nuggets of wisdom from those that have ridden the mile, and can provide some feedback on the curvy red crank forward creation.

Here is the spec:
RANS Street crank forward frame set...a little ways down on this page or here
Shimano LX crankset, 175mm 44/32/22T
Shimano LX GS rear derailleur
Shimano LX Front derailleur
Shimano XT/Ultegra chains
Shimano LX 11-34T cassette
MKS Lite Touring pedals with stainless pedal washers
Nitto Moustache bars
Shimano Dura Ace bar end shifters, 9spd
Shimano Ultegra road levers
Delta Inox tubular stainless steel H20 cage
Sun Rhyno Lite 29er rims with XT ISO disc hubs, 32h, 14/15 gauge butted spokes
Avid BB7 road disc calipers and rotors
RANS curved riser
Panaracer 700x37mm Pasela tires, to be swapped out for Schwable Marathon 700x32
RANS cable organizer
3M clear bra protective patches between cable and paint

Still needs bar tape, SKS fenders, rear disc adapters for rear rack, rear rack, kickstand, brass solo Incredibell. Current weight as shown is 28.8lbs, and hoping to keep it around 35lbs before panniers, lighting etc.

Photo's:
Full bike
Handlebar configuration
Drivetrain close up
Rear hub close up
http://spincyclz.com/images/IMG_6225-small.jpg

Thanks in advance...

Rack Mounts?
Only one set of bottle braze ons?
Other than that... does that thing destroy your knees?

I'll be using these disc adpater plates to mount the rear rack which are specific to this style of bike.

Yes, I wish there were more factory braze-on for H20 carrying capacity, but this bike out of box was not designed specifically for touring. The comfortable ergo's, flat foot stops and torque that can be tapped while remaining seated and even engaging the upper body I believe makes it a natural choice for touring. Your feedback will reach the factory's ears, as this geometry gets some traction :)

Some customers are starting to put on some significant touring miles even on the lighter more road oriented Zenetik frames:

http://spincyclz.com/images/IMG_2113.JPG

Here is 6'3" Steve touring in Arizona.

Ian from Eidenborough on a weekender:

http://spincyclz.com/images/ShowLetter_3_4.jpg
http://www.ransbikes.com/images/Ian.jpg


Here is Grant Pederson and Randy Schillter of RANS chatting it up over the longer and lower Fusion geometry design. I am hoping to capture some of the Rivendell flavor, but with this new geometry and a nod to modern componentry:

http://spincyclz.com/images/IMG_5700.JPG

Are front panniers possible?

There are no eyelets in the standard stock 1 1/8" alloy disc/canti-stud fork. Somewhere I've seen racks that use these studs, or mount without them, and another more purpose built fork would certainly be an option.

Steve in OR found one front pannier setup that worked:

http://www.crankforward.com/my%20bik...e/45SSegal.jpg

We'll be at Sea Otter this year with a full compliment of these crank forwards bike available in the demo area.

?
I don't get it............

I'll try an elaborate...

Imagine taking the traditional road bike riding position, and rotating it back 15-20 degrees. This allows the seat pan width to increase, because your thighs no longer have to travel directly downward around the nose of a traditional skinny saddle, and the increased real estate has been a boon to a number of riders discovering this geometry. The rotated body position also reduces wrist and shoulder fatigue, neck strain and offers a more upright riding position (only compromising a slightly less aero profile).

While climbing a long grade or singletrack rather then using energy to stand and mash on the pedals, locking your arms and shoulder and engaging your upper body into the pedal stroke produces power on demand. The geometry allows you to stand up when desired, and the lower CG and seating position let you get your feet down at starts and stops. The standard frame can accomodate most riders ranging from 5'3" - 6'3" depending on your in-seam measurement. There is also a no cost short frame option where 1.5" of seat tube are machined off for even shorter folks.

Here is the designer testing out a different handle bar configuration helps demonstrate the crank forward concept.

A little more info about the adavantages

With a chain that long do you have to pay constant attention to big rings as dropping down on the rear would have that chain slapping against the stay.
How low is the BB?
Can you pedal through corners?
On a windy prairie day I don't think there is any way I could get out of the wind on it.
Would my torso act like a sail?

The only thing I see wrong is that the chain stays aren't long enough :) Heck, Even Sasquatch could ride that thing without heel strike.

I'd have to try riding one - just looking at it makes me think of a chopper. And cringe. A chopper is probably the last motorcycle you'd ever want to try doing distance on. Trust me on this.

Doesn't that riding position put too much pressure on the butt? And the lower back?

People ride Xtracycles and Big Dummies with equally long chains and don't experience any serious problems. I had a recumbent with a 10'+ long chain and no idlers along the length of the chain - that worked fine as well.

I'm pretty happy with my existing touring bikes, but if someone was selling those RANS CF bikes around here I'd definitely take one out for a test ride....:p

I think I looked at it too long,my back hurts.Does it come with a seat belt,looks like you would fall off of it at a stop without putting your feet down.

Would like to test ride one,to see what it rides like.

Not a bad build.
Not a bad build at all.

They laughed at Graeme Obree too......still it looks like it would hurt the back rather than save it.

That bike looks like a blast to ride. I like it.

I guess I would need to ride one before guessing what the designer has in mind.
To me, it looks like a cruiser. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't think I would want to tour on a cruiser.
The way my present bike is designed it shares the riders weight over the seat, bars and pedals. The way my ZX-11 Ninja also does. This design looks to place all the weight on the seat as the pedals are forward. I don't know how you could just raise your butt an inch (like when you cross train tracks ect) to let your legs be the shocks. You would have to completely stand up.
The CG looks waaay back. With loaded rear panniers I bet it would be the wheelie king of the new millenium.

Since you asked about the build...

Looks really solid. Disc brakes are a personal thing and a topic of hot debate. Cable actuated would be my choice if I were going to go disc on a tour.
I may have opted for 36 spoked wheels (I'm 235 lbs so take that with a grain of salt).
The only other thing is that I personally don't like the shape of Shimano aero levers but that's not really a big deal especially since on that bar the hands won't be hitting the hoods in the same way anyway.
Frame looks funky but as long as it works for ya. I'd be interested in riding it around just to see what it feels like.

some answers
 

What do ride now ricohman. Unless your on an aero bar, or a recumbent, chances are your torso is acting like a sail. You can use aero bars on the Crankforward to maintain a really low drag ratio without compromising comfort.

I find that the wind is more tolerable than on an "ordinary" bicycle. If the wind hits the chest on an "ordinary" bicycle it pushes the crotch onto the nose of the saddle. Also the Crankforward puts the COG lower so it performs better in a crosswind.

The BB height is the same as most mountain bikes at 9 and a third inches with 2.1 tires on. I have found that pedaling through corners is easy as is coasting in deep ruts. The dead spot is much higher on the Crankforward, and that helps me.

I have no aero bars on any of my bikes.
But I do happen to live in the windiest place on earth (the Saskatchewan prairies) so I have a lot of experience when it comes to pushing headwind all day/all week.
On my MTB, in a typical prairie wind, I find myself wishing I was on anything that didn't have that style of riding position.
And like I said, I would have to ride one of these before I could properly give any opinions.
The OP wanted critique, and I don't figure I was being too harsh.

I would like to try one to see how it was, but based on the position it looks like you would be in I would question that... My thighs bumping my ribs is what limits how low I can get on a "regular" drop bar bike. It sure looks like they would bump a bit sooner on a crank forward design. It also seems like if tucked you would be folded in the middle tight enough to make breathing a bit restricted.

CoG might be lower, but the ability to shift weight looks like it would also be reduced. In addition it looks like it would be hard to get your butt off the seat to let your legs act as shock absorbers, and forget about bunny hopping over a pot hole or raised joint on a bridge unless you planned ahead and were standing.

If I get a chance to ride one I will just to see, but I expect to be more underwhelmed than I was when I tried a recumbent.

Definitely cool looking. But it seems to me like you lose the pedaling power of a road bike but you don't get the comfort of a recumbent, so where is the advantage? I almost think you would lose pedalling power over a recumbant because you don't have back support behind you.

@staehpj1

I was thinking the same thing when I first purchased the aero bars, because I have long legs as well. But it works, probably because I'm pushing out more than on an "ordinary" bike. I find my breathing to be least restricted on the aero bars. I haven't heard of many other people trying the aero bars so my info is a little restricted to my own experience.

I find that I can shift my weight on the seat for a variety experiance, but I don't stand up as much as I used to. The Crankforward design puts my head up in a more natural position when I'm in the flatbar hand position, this allows me to see obstacles easier. I end up steering around obstacles even though it's possible to bunny hop the CF.

@slabshaft

I don't see the loss of pedalling power for I've owned many racing geometry bikes. Could you explain.

The Crankforward has many advantages over the recumbent. It can be used in more versatile settings such as mountainbiking or rough dirt roads and in traffic. For me, it's more comfortable than a recumbent on the road because my butt absorbs all the road vibrations that get sent to my stomach on a recumbent. It's a personal preference thing so if your not with it, more for me.

i really don't understand the traction point. that is the last bike you'd ever want to ride off road, short of a full-blown 'bent, and traction (especially braking and accelerating) doesn't much matter on road, especially when you've got loaded panniers.

The comment about knees...
Assume that the frame geometry and ergonomics are favorable to tour on this build... but why the 175mm cranks? Tourists and 'bent riders seem to indicate that shorter crank lengths are better because it reduces forces on the knee.

i'm only saying this now as I approach 60 years... and wish I hadn't pushed even 170mm cranks for so many touring miles. OK, I can get new knees:( I guess, but if I had to do it again...

@fueled by Boh

Traction is gained by putting weight on the rear wheel, is it not. How could there be traction issues if there is more weight on the rear tire. I know many people with a pickup truck who fill the bed with sandbags so they will have more traction. The same thinking applies to the CF. If you properly distribute weight to the rear wheel there is much more traction.

I have improved my acceleration with the Crankforward because I can pull on the handlebar to gain extra torque. There is no need to stand up on the pedals because you can use the upper body and gravity while sitting in the seat.

If I haven't tested the design against the trek fuel ex5, the SPECIALized fsr xcpro, and the SPECIALIZED stumpjumper only to find the Dynamik wins hands down, I'ld be in skeptical crowd. Properly set up, none of my riding buddies can keep up.

Nanda will you be racing in the SOC, or will you be too busy at the booth and such. I'ld really like to hear about you and Randy Schlitter going at it.

Wow, lots of great feedback eh
 

Wow...let me see if I can get some questions answered...

Ricohman... The bb height is roughly the same as traditional mtbs which Luser mentioned. The curve tubes on the Street models frame are the only difference from the Dynamik model which is also an extremely potent mtb:
http://spincyclz.com/images/DynamikPro08L_1_.jpg

You can certainly pedal through corners, and stay planted through quick singletrack tapping into the torque for quick sprint at will...which is very satisfying. Yes, the more upright torso exposes you to more headwinds, but you can lean on the bars if your back and other parts will take it.

Robow... yup, the chainstays are about 9" longer, and a straight shot without any curves like regular mtbs stays that have to clear the crank and tire. I mounted a chain catcher with the tooth oriented upwards to keep the chain from buzzing my Crank Forward "CF" mtb http://spincyclz.com/images/IMG_5281.JPG and wedging between the chainguard and tire.

Sykerocker... getting a demo ride is the only way to really apprieciate what RANS has done with this design. I offer 1 week and month long demo opportunities for local customers, so they can put a bike through it's paces before making the investment. Some of the customers in the lower right corner of the homepage under Spin Stat's are listed as "Demo Hosts" and if one is in your area I can hook you for a ride, since there are not many CF dealers out there yet. RANS also offers a direct ship program, with a full refund less shipping if it doesn't work out. Here is a little article about CF touring. The Cruz and Fusion models have a chopper-esque feel, but not the pork of most style over substance offerings. They also have the more extreme CF geometry where the hip/torso angle is more closed allowing more stealth power when needed. This article highlights some of the changes for 2008 (as CF's were only introduced a few years ago), and shows the lower longer geometry Fusion and lime green Cruz, and the new PEP finish 18.5lb Zenetik Pro (a hybrid work combining Zen and Kenetic)http://www.ransbikes.com/images/Zpro08L.jpg
Some riders do feel lower back or butt pain in their "sit bones" so it definitely is not for everybody, but 90% of folks I have serviced found one that worked for them. Half the CF buyers are recumbent riders looking for what they left behind in their road biking younger days, and the other are folks tired of the traditionally marketed racing geometry. There can be an acclimation period, usually 2 months or 200 miles.

Vik... there are about 1 1/3rd lengths of chain on the CF bikes, and it doesn't move as much as you'd think, unless you are off road and love thrashing around. Anytime your feeling the CF itch I'd be happy to entertain you, or loan you a demo for an extended period so you can relay the experience on your blog eh :)

Booger1... wish I could agree with you, but everytime I spend just a mere minute on a friends road or mtb, all the pains come back....guess I've gotten spoiled. Seat belts are optional, and might actually improve the bunny-hopability of the CF mtbs :p No risk of dumping off the rear. The rear wt. bias is actually right where you want to be on hairy down hill mtb descents, and the rough bumps merely "paddle" your arse, not really transferring the blows...so a full rear suspension would be overkill with this geometry...but fun to experiment with.

Jamawani... thx, not done yet. I name all the custom builds after call girls, the red one opening the thread is Sonia. We also have Ruby, Tavia, Candy, Cloe, Petra, Crystal...shown here. I try not to "sell bikes" just play the conduit to the factory making them accessible, with a "try it you might like it" attitude, and if something tickles you we'll go from there. Most of the clientele gets the adult humor, like the Ex-Lovers Page "...still fun to ride, but you've found something better"...Used bikes sounds sooo generic :D

Nun... your handle says it all, no back pain to speak of even after my first full century...zero, zip, nada, nun

Tehk... I could put you in touch with a CF owner/customer in Culver City that could give you a taste? Here is the bike you could ride which the customer built up from a raw alloy Zenetik frame set and used his Giant OCR road bike as a parts donor:
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...erBarsDown.jpg

Ricohman... cruiser in appearance only and not much else would likely better apply to the longer lower Fusion an Cruz. There are a variety of stem riser heights, curved risers and handlebars to get the front end ergo's dialed into the riders preferences. I find the Nitto Northroad bars work really well on the road bikes, and like a completely flat bar on the mtb's for more forward weight bias in loose conditions. Also had 14 moto's before taking one spill on my Suziki V-Strom DL1000 and then getting back into cycling. Actually it's tough to wheelie a CF, due to the extended wheelbase...I've tried, and those that have loaded the front with luggage, or handlebar bags have reported slightly more stable handling with a more even wt. distribution.

BikEthan... thx for the feed back. I chose the Street frame because it has the beefy down tube, and I liked the fact that the cables are fully jacketed from the shifters to BB, keeping the road crude out. Only chose the Avid BB7 discs, for ease of wheel swapping if the customer wanted to run 26's, and like their all around performance once the pads are broken in, and the down hill and wet weather confidence they instill. I am also 235lbs :o and could agree with you on the 36h hub suggestion. If I was going to go with a more traditional wheelset, I'd order up a Velocity OCR with Shimano XT non disc hubs built up by Rich Lesnik at Rivendell who also has his side biz Hands On Wheels and does great wheel work. Regarding the Shimano aero levers, I think they are perfectly paired with the Nitto Moustache bars, and have seen and ridden several of them on the Rivendell models.

Luser... which CF model do you have? I've only seen on Zenetik setup with drop bars, and might try it sometime, if I think my wrists can take it. Thanks for the bb measurement...

Ricohman... I have thick skin so your honest opinion and those of others are all welcome. Anything new or outside the box usually meets resistance, and people naturally speculate about the performance, comfort, ergo's, hanlding, wheeliness, aero-ness etc. without any seat time, but that's the best they can do until they've planted there booty on one and cranked it.

Staehpj1... check the Spinsiders listed on the lower right of the homepage, and there might be a demo host in your area that'll give you some seat time. Aren't you near Bikes at Vienna, a cool east coast shop that I believe stocks CF's? I went to the United Bicycle Instutite and shared bench time with John the owner of B.a.V. As I mentioned earlier there are a wide array of front end configurations to get the desired riding position for long term comfort. Yes, the CoG is lower, and on the more upright geometry Cf's(which includes every model except the Fusion and Cruz) you can certainly unweight the seat, stand up, and pedal if you wish. I always take photo's when customers come to demo, and try to get their profile shots so they can see there body geometry between the different models...several pix here

Slabshaft... thx, you can't get excatly the same kind of road bike power/hustle going as you would when sprinting while holding the drops on a road bike (which you can usually only do for a minute or two or just in short bursts), but you can tap into that same power at any time while fully seated. Some CF riders believe they can generate more power by pulling themselves into the pedal stroke, where standing only lets you leverage the crank with gravity...hard to explain without some demo seat time.

Luser... yes, there are several advantages of CF over bents, portability/transporting, climbing ability, price, ride height in traffic...just to name a few. As you've mentioned the wide seat pan allows you move about to change your pedal stroke or relieve the rear on a longer ride, rather then being locked into the same 4 square inches of a traditional saddle space. Off road on steeper climbs or in loose rubble, I'll ride up on the front edge to shorten my pedal reach and get some quick torque, and on the downhills I'll slide back to keep weight on the rear in fast sweepers. Advantages over road bikes are basically softer ergonomics for the upper bod and lower back, and more real estate to support the load on the rear. Also the laser etched seat posts have in-seam numbers which are pretty accurate, so you can loan your ride out to your SO or a friend and get them setup quickly, or get it back to your setting fast. The seat system also has a second quick release under the seat pan to adjust the tilt if the edge is cutting into your thighs etc.
http://www.shoprans.com/images/BPST0147G.jpg

Fueled by Boh... traction point...where was that mentioned? Actually the mtb CF like the Dynamik models are awesome off-road, and in fact all I ride on a weekly basis. The longer wheelbase makes it extremely tough to get the rear end loose, and naturally softens the landing off small jumps without a mess of pivots and linkages.

CrankFranky... my parts vendor only stocks 175mm mtb cranksets. As a small part-time operation I have a harder time getting in with QBP or BTi, since I run out of a low overhead storage space during my lunch hours at the day job (mechanical engineer), with emails in the evenings and demo's on the weekends. One notable resource for shortened cranks is Mark Stonich at Bikesmith Designs. He offers cranks down to 155mm and even shorter if needed.

Luser... I wish I was in shape to race at Sea Otter, might sign up for the mtb 20mi tour, if I can break away from the demo booth. I used to mtb a lot around Mt. Tam in Marin through high school and junior college on the Cannondale Killer V with the Manitou EFC fork...man that was awhile back... Also used to row on the crew team in high school which built the quads and other parts, keeping fitness way up, but never did more then one mtb race, which was a Squaw Valley event (that was a lung burner). I've been shaking off the pounds with the last couple months with mtb riding, and would like to have a goal to compete in a couple x-country or cyclo-cross events in the next 12 mo's.

RANS is sharing a booth with Rad-Innovations and I am prepping all the CF's and transporting them to and from the show. I'll be there Wed-Sun (my first time) and will be camping on-site...should be a blast. I am currently testing the steel prototype Dynamik Sequoia which was built for the 6'+ crowd with even a longer wheelbase and longer cockpit. This bike will also be at the show, and RANS is hoping to get some feedback from the taller riders out there.

Started with a Wow and ending with a Wow, as it took well over an hour to get all the content for this phattie reply. Hope I got the questions answered, if not bring'm on eh...(gotta go pee now :p)

Is it possible to see some pics (side views) of the bike with rider?
I would like to see one pic of a rider standing while pedaling, one pic tucked (headwind), and one pic with the riders butt just a bit off the seat like when you want to use the legs as shocks (train track ect).
As a 43 year old rider I will often stand to stretch and pedal this way for a mile or two. Gives my body a break on long days.
I would also like to see pics of the bikes with the shorter stems.

I'll work on getting those photo's Ricohman. Thought I'd have some progress shots to share of the build by now, but been swamped getting bikes ready for Sea Otter, and waiting for a few more parts (not the mention the stellar riding weather out west).

I know how to improve traction, I just don't hear anyone complaining about their road touring bike's lack of traction. Using improved traction as a selling point for something that is impractical (can't reasonably bunny hop it, manual it, or un-weight individual wheels) for off road use doesn't make sense to me. That was my point.

The bike is beautiful and it looks beautiful when loaded up for touring. I rode a friend's "Beach Cruiser" once, with similarly kicked out pedals, and it seemed to me exquisitely comfortable, like no bike I'd ever been on. Still and all, I once had a cruiser style motorcycle (Magna) and having one's weight on the butt can get to be very painful after several hours. In sum, I think it is almost certainly a really great, lovable bicycle for around town use or a morning's ride but I'd have to try it for at least a weekend's excursion before I'd trust it not to be a butt-breaker. Passing that test, I'd probably be happy to buy one, if I was in the market for a bike.