Asana, . . . to put this bluntly without getting me banned from the forums. . . you're a ****. you're pond scum, and you have no idea how to handle any situation with regards to animals, if you ask me, the dogs deserve to rip you apart.

you simply don't treat animals like that. . . i don't know what makes you think you have the right to act like an naive adolescent, but you need to get a life.

I don't see what he did wrong, as far as the bike riding bits go. The greyhound/toy dog scenario might have been a bit rough.

In the situations outlined by Asana the dogs clearly presented a danger to himself, and a potentially lethal danger at that. This could quite conceivably be the case if the attacking dog caused the rider to fall under or otherwise collide with a passing motor vehicle.

More to the point, in one of the scenarios the dog was deliberately encouraged to attack him by its owner, which effectively made the dog a lethal weapon.

If it comes down to a choice between Rover's welfare, and the possibility that the cyclist may not make it home, then I'm on the cyclist's side.

Furthermore, though it may seem callous to harm the dog, you, or I, or one of our children, may be the next rider to benefit, or survive, that stretch of road consequent to Rover's mortal departure.

Ultimately the responsibility for the dog's actions and the dog's fate lies with its owner, not the rider.

The responsibilities of dog ownership are akin to ownership of any other animal. A farmer wouldn't let his cattle roam across the turnpike, thereby representing a danger to both the cattle and passing motorists. An owner of a Bengal tiger wouldn't let it off the leash to roam a shopping mall. An owner of a chimpanzee shouldn't let it be in a position where it can rip a visitor's face off.

And the owner of a dog shouldn't let it be unrestrained in a public place where it can present a danger to passing cyclists.

In our experience (nearing 40,000km of cycling), stopping and looking the dog right in the eye, showing no fear, works the best. Throwing a few rocks while stopped can help too and then progress very slowly by the dog, walking if you have to. We think there's something in the sound of the spokes that makes the dogs want to chase you but whatever it is, when you stop you break the chase sequence. Very rarely we've had quite aggressive dogs that have made us nervous about being bitten. In this case, we get very aggressive with our body language and throw lots of rocks or get out a pump to threaten them with. An old grandma saved me from a few nasty dogs in Iran by beating them with her broom

So far, no bites. But I wouldn't try to outrun any dog unless you're going 30km/hour and can sustain that pace.

And what the heck is it with this pit bull thing? Why on earth does anybody want an animal like that?

Having seen, first hand, the mess that one of these unpredictable animals makes to a human being when they go bad, I just cannot understand it. My secretary's leg was torn open from behind the knee to the ankle joint when one of these monsters went berserk for no apparent reason as she was walking home from the bus. She lost a lot of blood, and the scars - both mental and physical, will remain forever.

The owner said the dog was the gentlest animal alive and had never demonstrated an aggressive streak in its life, then went on to oppose the destruction order. Unbelievable.

Thankfully, the destruction order was properly executed, and so was the dog.

IMO if people really want to own one of these animals, and are prepared to comply with the reponsibilities of ownership and stay within the boundaries of common sense by either keeping the animals locked up and away from passers by, or securely on a leash, that's their business.

However, if they shirk those responsibilites, and fail to exercise their common sense, an unrestrained pit bull in a public place ought to be put down as a theat to public safety. No ifs, no buts, no second chances.

the real problem here is that people like you don't know how to deal with dogs, and have no IDEA what's going on in their head when they chase you.

as for before, explain to me again how RUNNING OVER A DOG is less danger to a cyclist?? please, i'd like to know how that's not dangerous.

second, if you're on a walkway, even an MUP, especially when passing, you shouldn't be flying fast enough that it presents a danger, that's on the cyclists head, not the owner of the scared dog.

you in fact do NOT own this world or anybody on it, including animals. And if you showed some kindness to dogs that are attacking, guess what!? they WOULDN'T. they aren't out to kill you, they have no reason to. if anything they just want to scare you off their turf or they feel like they're protecting their owner.

people don't have their pets on a leach when they're in parks, deal with it appropriately, not by bashing the dogs head in because you thought it was IT'S fault. you heard the explanation, he stood there and let it happen, if he had just stepped forward in front of the two dogs, or shouted at the smaller dog, the whole situation could have been avoided, instead, his sick mind apparently wanted to watch this play out, like he knew it would. and you're backing him up like a moron

as far as aggressive dogs, yes, extra precautions should be taken, however, i do not doubt that the dog you referred to never had a mean streak in it's life. if the person is scared, a dog will pick up on it, she did SOMETHING to trigger that dog. and no, that doesn't make what happened ok, but don't tell me it's "unbelievable" that the person is trying to save their dog when neither the owner nor the dog did anything intentionally wrong. while it's true some breeds tend to be more aggressive, it is very possible to have a pit bull that is a great pet.

stop being so ignorant and unkind towards animals

oh, and another thing, a dog isn't a f***ing bengal tiger, AND trainers seem to get along fine with even THEM.

i'm so sick of people with this mentality that the world should be catered around them and that if they get attacked, it's immediately the dogs fault, and the owners fault.

guess what!? it's not always.

grow up, i'm sick of being nice to small minded people with no respect for anybody but themselves

You just don't get it, do you?

An innocent passer-by, be they a cyclist, a pedestrian, or anybody else, is not required to educate themselves with regard to the behavioural characteristics of dogs, or any other domestic animal. Nor should they be obliged to do so.

To repeat the simple and central point, which clearly went over your head, the responsibility for a domestic animal lies with its owner, not the innocent passer-by that the animal may attack.

Dogs are only capable of running after, intimidating, or attacking passers-by through the negligence of their owner. If the dog is properly secured, the problem does not arise. How simple is that?

A dog, a cat, a chimpanzee, or a tiger is an animal. Nothing more, nothing less. When the welfare of a person and the welfare of an animal collide, the person's welfare is more important. End of story.

my dog runs along side me when im on my bike. there was a long strip of road by the train tracks that i use to take him out on every day for exercise. he just stays next to my bike. should this be illegal?? because the majority of the people in my town dont seem to think so. where i live people let you bring your dogs in video stores and coffee shops and restaurants with patios. its just a dog friendly town. an "open minded" town. people dont get freaked out when they see a dog walking with its owner off the leash. hell,, even when the dog is out of its yard on accident,, because sometimes dogs escape.. its not always the owners neglagence if a dogs on the street..
the point that im getting at is this.. if you are on a bike tour passing through MY town,, and you come down MY street where me or any of my neighbors are playing with our dogs off the leash,,, id think twice before i intentionally RUN OVER the dog that comes trotting up to you.. you would have a much worse penalty coming your way than possably having your heels nipped at.... i would catch you,, and feel free to take as many pictures of the "crime scene" as you can before i shove the camera up your cavity hole. if the police want to fetch it out of there you can file a report on me.. file several... file away..

some people could stand to learn to be a little more sensative to other peoples environments,, not the other way around where you believe that the world should adapt to your comfort levels and reservations.

the "crazy pitt bull" scenario is a 1 in 1000 chance with domesticated dog encounters.

i think the water bottle squirting was a reasonable idea that somebody brought to the table..
wasnt that the purpose of this thread? bringing ideas to the table? not venting your hatred of leashless dogs and there owners or bragging about the fates that youve dealt them?

Hehe,
Pit Bulls like Pit Bulls

i completely understand you now, you simply have no regards for other life, and i was right in saying that you think that you own the world and you are all that is important. gotcha . . .

by the way. . . you're an animal, nothing more, nothing less, just like the rest of us. This is a fact of life. you're no better than a dog or cat, rat, whatever.

your mentality if i'm not mistaken, is "this is your problem, not mine, and i won't do anything to help the situation because i shouldn't have to" . . . would you have the same mentality if someone were getting mugged and you had a means to intervene and stop it?

I don't think that there is any one good action that will work for every situation. When on tour I would never stop and get off the bike every time some dog runs out into the road barking. I would not get very far in a day. I usually speed up if possible when I expect a dog encounter, I would like to pass through the dog's territory before he realizes that I am there. If one appears and chases me then I slow down and talk (sometimes very loudly) to him but continue. The ones that always get my attention are the ones that don't bark but do chase. Especially the really big ones. Had a Great Dane come loping out looking me eye to eye. In the end he was only running to accompany his little friend who barked and acted bad. The big guy was just getting his exercise. There is almost more aggression here on this thread than there is in many real dog encounters.

Almost?

I've been chased by dogs hundreds of times and have never had a real problem. In 50 years of riding I only remember a few dogs I really thought wanted to bite me.

Back in the day I was chased by at least one dog on almost every ride (I grew up way before leash laws were enforced or maybe even before they existed) and generally didn't think it was that big of a deal. These days, in most of the US, being chased is infrequent, Kentucky and Missouri being exceptions. I try to look at is as an interesting diversion and usually have fun trying to out sprint the dogs. They are wicked fast (probably 40 mph) for a short burst, but lose interest quickly at anything much over 20 mph. In Missouri and Kentucky we tried to be going at least 18 or 20 mph when we passed places we though we were likely to be chased. As a result I think we went by quite a few before they noticed us.

Interestingly on the Trans America almost every dog that chased us with only one exception was on either flat road or a downhill. I wonder if we were just lucky, the dogs were less interested when we were climbing slowly, or if they would have frequently been on uphills if we were going the other way.

Some owners smell like their dogs.

I was attacked Monday morning, while walking, by a pack of dogs. I had a walking stick, and brandished it as the dogs in front of me attacked. One reached my right leg and I struck at it ineffectually as it started to bite. At about the same time, the big dog in the rear tore the back of my thigh and knee apart. I cannot walk or cycle now. I hope some day I will heal.

rep, I hope you recover quickly.

My secretary was similarly attacked whilst walking home from the bus after work, although thankfully only one dog was involved.

Recovery is a long process, and I fully understand what you are going through.

Did you trace the owner? I appreciate that you will have trouble getting around, but you need to get in touch with a lawyer as soon as possible.

Ah, juggleaddict, I see you have made yet another befuddled and inelegant "contribution" to this thread (and I use the word "contribution" very loosely).

It would be so very easy to take this dialogue personally and rip you apart, but it isn't necessary. Your posts do it for you.

I also understand that any attempt to pursue a rational or intelligent dialogue with you is probably a complete waste of time. However, I am a patient man, so I will respond to your very improperly punctuated post.

Firstly, I do not see how you can possibly conclude that I have no respect for other life. I did not in any way suggest, insinuate or even imply this. If our much pampered household cat was capable of reading and comprehending your statement, I'm sure he would be horrified by your mistaken conclusion and mount a vigorous argument in my defence. However, he cannot read or speak, much less argue. He is, after all, a cat.

That being said, I stand by my previous comment that where the welfare of animals and humans collide, the welfare of the human takes precedence. Your suggestion that a human being is no better than a rat speaks volumes.

I can envisage you fleeing a burning building, and spying the collapsed forms of other inhabitants, finding yourself in moral dilemma. Who, indeed, would you attempt to save, an unconscious person, sprawled out across the floor, or a similarly incapacitated rat? Would you stand there trying to decide, or would you simply drag the closest one out of the building with no regard to the species of the life form you were saving? Would your decision be affected if, in fact, there were two rats, and one human?

Secondly, and it really goes without saying, I do not believe that I personally own the world. Nor do I believe that I am of any particular importance. However, I absolutely believe that people as a whole are the custodians of our planet, and that we are clearly on a somewhat higher plane than the animals who are, by and large are under our dominion.

It would appear that you have a rather unusual and perverted perception of the value of human life. Again, your post speaks for itself. It is probably not worthy of further comment.

However, I would be curious as to how many other people would put the welfare of a “dog or cat, rat, whatever” [sic] on the same level as the welfare of their partner, child, acquaintance, or even an unknown passerby in the street.

My oh my, that paragraph is a convoluted mess. You may like to seek out a copy of Robert Thouless’ book “Straight and Crooked Thinking” which has been in print pretty much continuously since the 1930s. It quite an accessible read, even for disadvantaged individuals of limited intellect, such as you. You may enjoy it.

Thouless’ book deals with fallacious argumentative principles such as argumentum ad consequentiam (argument to the consequences), in regard to which your third paragraph is virtually a textbook example.

I hope I have read the paragraph correctly, although given its defective construction I could be forgiven for misreading it completely. You appear to conclude that because I believe a dog owner is responsible keeping his dog secured and thereby ensuring the safety of passersby, and I further believe there is no onus on the part of a passerby to be familiar with the psychology of dogs in general, or an aggressive dog it particular, it somehow follows that I would not go to the assistance of somebody being violently attacked by another person.

Is my interpretation correct, or have I somehow not followed your post correctly?

Now, I previously wrote that I am a patient man, but really, there are limits. You have truly exceeded the limits that any reasonable person ought to tolerate, and I must conclude that you are simply not worth talking to, or writing to. I have nothing further to say.

I agree with the "sentiment"
when i was in The Army 87'-92' i was deployed to Panama for Operation Just Cause. as a young man we were often referred to as "D.I.C.K.'s", and when the day cam that Hummers were sold publicly, i had thought a bumper sticker to read, "Hummers are for D.I.C.K.'s" in stencil font.
D.I.C.K. = Dedicated Individual Committed to Kill

ya... its crazy

i was once involved with Animal Rescue for some years. the local animal shelters euthanize something like 1500lbs of beloved family pets.

dogs are confiscated by the Sheriff for various reasons.

people abandon their pets on a regular basis.

the human condition is really a trip.

every time, i've taken evasive action in regards to a K9, its been a bummer.

however, in California, the owners of those animals are required by law to be responsible for their property. in this case dogs.

its the owners responsibility to ensure their dog's behavior is appropriate.

in so many instances, when animals are rescued from shelters, there is a period of "socialization" that is... teaching the animal how to be around The Human World. albeit, that varies widely.

sadly, here in Coastal California, and/or populated areas. Owning a dog. actually that is not the P.C. verbiage. Rather, being "The Guardian" of a pet. in this case, a dog. dogs are often more of a liability than an asset.

most beaches here in Monterey County, dogs are banned due to "Snowy Plover" habitat.
dogs are banned from The Ventana Wilderness
but, in Carmel, you can walk your dog all over, get coffee, and have your pooch sit with out in the outdoor seating at Cafe Cardninale.

Dorris Day has a hotel that caters to Pet Lovers.

again, its the pertinency of the situation.

an aggressive dog, in public space, compromising my safety, sadly, I will take evasive action.

luckily for us Humans, our frontal lobes give us the ability to process time and resources much faster than K9's

thats not saying an inexperienced person vs a trained dog will always "out wit" the dog, as its totally obvious that any trained Guard Dog, or Military K9 will subdue a Human in seconds.

i apologize for offending anyone...

aggressive dogs are a volatile subject.

unfortunately I've also witnessed a loose aggressive pit/mix on the beach, when an off duty officer simply put it down.

its sad.

my brothers, typically have had nothing but pit mixes. and its a wonder than they never got in trouble because of those dogs.

dogs vary widely. just 2 days ago a lady with a gaggle of yippie yappy dogs was on the side of the bike path, all on those yo yo leashes, she attempting to pick up poop with a plastic bag, as they flew loose across the path, the dogs, about 5 of them, running amuck, as if bees swarming in chaotic patterns, and there she was with her dogs, on the bike path, in traffic.

my concern was to avoid a yippie yorkie going thru a nice set of new road wheels, al la CruisinArt motion.

blah blah blah

its very much a kin to my neighbor's dog, who sits at home 10hrs a day, alone in the back yard, and all she does is bark all day long. Sadie is a sweet dog. She's just lonely. If she were to get loose, and of course she wants so desperately to get loose, if she were to run amuck in the streets, i'm quite certain she'd get hit by a car, chase a cyclists, or knock down a pedestrian, only in her exuberance of "BEING FREE".

poor thing.

and who's responsible? in our wold, dogs don't have voices, they can't write, they have "Guardians", or as the Law states, "Owners". that poor dog, going a bit stir crazy, its Pete's responsibility to ensure that she is healthy. that is a broad spectrum. physically she's healthy. Mentally, emotionally... I'd say she is frustrated.

we play "squeaky toy fetch" thru the knot hole in the fence. Pete doesn't want anyone to care for his dog other than himself, as its her "job" to watch the house.

people are abandoning their pets all the time.

just last week an older German Shepherd, was loose with no tags, no collar. he was wondering, lost, suspicious of people. i was working on my bike in the yard, throwing the squeaky toy for Sadie over the fence, and he comes up.

the fur in between the pads of his feet were so long, and his pads becoming raw, obvious that he had been held hostage, living the life of a kept being, inside someone's house, probably one of the foreclosures. all he wanted was a bowl of water, and company. would he let me touch him? no way. but he'd lay down, rest, and watch me nervously.

so ya... what a bummer to be a dog in Man's World. at some point that poor old Shepherd, probably another statistic, 80lbs of that 1500lbs/yr that gets euthanized. (if not more by now)

again... my sincerest apologies for grossing anyone out. we are living in gross times.

peace...d

i once had a neighbor, whose schedule was too busy to keep up with his Boarder Collie pup. Doogie.
i was so happy to be his care taker. that dog, was an absolute genius. it took a small time to train him. he ran along side me while i rode my MTB.
he new all the hand signals
he new voice commands
he new, trail left, trail right
go left, go right
heel
sit, stay, good, put, roll over, fetch, you name it... an amazing smart dog.

he ran with his leash in his mouth
he would bring you his leash when asked...
he even cranked the window to various degrees in my old 82' Subaru Wagon


however, on Ft. Ord, on BLM property when they graze sheep out there, i know there are working Boarder Collies present. never get near the flock of sheep. a family of Boarder Collies at 20mph over rough terrain, while you are pretty much confined to trail or fire road... a bicycle is no match to a family of Boarder Collies.

in California, unless, its a "Dog Park", all dogs are required to be on a leash at all times.
the terrier vs greyhound incident, technically took place at the boarder of the park, of what would be the sidewalk, if sidewalks were put in.

that little dog ran right up from a short distance, with little line of sight.
those are 2 big greyhounds.
i had them both on 1" wide nylon leashes.
with them pulled close at my left knee
held tight in the right hand
and the loop of the leashes around my left hand, with slack between my hands. halting the dogs.
i stomped across those dogs, to pull that terrier away from the greyhounds.
i simply stood my ground, in a Public Space.

that lady was terrified
and i thought for sure that terrier would have been torn apart

it was a bit of a scene as it was around 9am, in a neighborhood, across the street from the home of other cyclists I happen to know.

that was a case of a "happy go lucky" yippie yappy little dog that runs up to every dog to play.

I'll admit, those greyhounds are not my dogs, and I don't have more than a couple of weeks acquaintance with them. and I admit, that greyhound care is new to me. they are fast sight hounds.

that lady with the terrier was negligent in that her dog was not on a leash.
thats the law.

i was totally apologetic, and at first almost in tears, until, i realized that i was not at fault.
her dog was loose in a Public City Park, where dogs are not allowed.
I was at the boarder of the Park, on what would be the sidewalk, and the dogs were on leashes.

OK, since it was OK for juggleadict (whatever that is) to call another forum member a "dick" for their obviously baiting and flame-inducing responses, I'm gonna go ahead and turn the tables on you. You're a blithering idiot. Abacus already had some fun replying to your lunacy from a different post, and I can't resist. Let's just examine some more of your statements, shall we?

Um yeah.. I don't speak canine, nor can I read their minds, but I sure as hell know when I'm being attacked. See my rant later on below.

This was the only remotely sensible thing you said. Too bad the rest of it fell apart after that.

Where I live the speed limit on the MUP is 20mph. If I want to ride faster than that I use the roads but I am clearly within my rights to ride up to that speed. But that's beside the point. A dog owner who does not control his animal on that path is clearly the one presenting the danger, no matter what the speed of the cyclist (or roller-blader, or runner, or anybody else for that matter. Stop trying to turn the tables just because you don't like the things the poster said.)

Hold it. Back up a step. I've gotta clarify this one. Did you really sit there and type "if you showed some kindness to dogs that are attacking, guess what!? they WOULDN'T"?



I'm sorry, wait a minute. let me catch my breath.

OK.. let me try to reply to this.

No wait... here I go again.



Nevermind

I'm going to point out here that replying to posts that upset you as much as this one obviously did is just plain silly. Either the person you are replying to (like asana) is serious, and you can't change them. To try, especially in an environment like an internet forum is an exercise in futility. Either that or they are not at all serious, and are simply spoiling for an argument or flame war. If that's the case then you are still wasting your time. Either way you lose. Why bother?

And for what it's worth, my whole reply to this is simply for my own amusement. I could give a rip if I make a point or not.

You contradicted yourself about ten times in one paragraph. There are so many flaws to logic AND emotion in this statement I can't even begin to unravel them. And it doesn't amuse me anymore, so I won't try. In fact, I'm starting to feel quite sorry for you.

Nah... I lied. I'm not feeling sorry at all. Stop being so ignorant... period.

WTF?

Hold it.. back up again. I've gotta clarify this one as well. Did you really sit there and type "and that if they get attacked, it's immediately the dogs fault, and the owners fault"?

Are you ****ng serious?!?!?!?!? Who elses fault would it be?!?!?!?

Sorry.. here I go again.

oh? you were being nice? I'm sorry, I guess i missed that. Forget everything I said. Or rather.. just interpret it as me "being nice".

OK, I had my fun. Now... here's my response to the general topic, which I started reading because of what happened to me this past weekend.



[sorry.. another fit of giggling just took over... I can't seem to stop.]

Warning.. the rest of this is a rant. It's been two days and I'm still pissed. I had an encounter with a dog that was clearly out of the norm from what I have ever experienced. Many dogs chase, most simply want to play, etc. With dogs like that I can out sprint them, slow down or stop and shout them off, or use any one of a number of appropriate responses that result in no harm to me or the dog.

This one was different. This was a vicious dog that was clearly on the attack. I saw it coming and could read the expression immediately. Because I was ahead of it, I sprinted it, and started to get away. Just as I backed off, it got a second wind and I had to go again. I was going into a strong wind, and after just climbing a long grade. This dog was NOT running along with it's tongue hanging out. It was clearly trying to get ahold of my right foot/leg and the only thing stopping it was it couldn't get a clear shot at my moving foot. (I knew there was a good reason to adopt a high cadence riding style!)

I looked at the data afterwards. The sprint was pathetic, but given the conditions... and my heart rate was maxed. I did everything I could have done at the time and barely got away.

Let me be clear. I was attacked. Period. No other way to interpret it. End of story. Except for the rant part.

I want this dog dead. Not injured, not pepper sprayed. DEAD. It has no business walking this earth, no business drawing another breath at all. Neither does it's owner. I don't give a rat's ass what the 'feelings' of the owner are about his 'beloved' animal. That's Bull****. As far as I'm concerned, the owner should be put down and buried right along with the dog.

In fact, I am still considering whether I will go out (in a car) at some point and take out that dog (since I can't take out the owner). Probably not, but I'll keep my options open.

Hmm... I guess this forum post can be used as evidence against me now?

As I said though, this is by far an EXCEPTION. I ride over 10,000 miles a year and encounter hundreds of dogs. I have never had this kind of situation before. I've had countless dogs that chased and many that would bite if given a chance. And I've had accidents as a result of dogs too. Last spring I had a dog come unseen out of some brush and in a matter of seconds got into my front wheel and knocked me to the ground. I never had a chance to respond. Left me laying in the road with approaching cars coming at me, bruised and bloody and with a badly sprained hand. Even that didn't have me this pissed off. I have never been in fear for my safety like I was on Saturday.

All joking and taunting of silly forum posters aside, after this encounter I am going to start carrying the most effective solution I can conveniently carry and use if needed. And I don't give a damn if it's legal or lethal. If I gotta choose between me or the dog, the dog is going to lose. Seems the general consensus that the best solution is a streaming pepper spray. It will be a method of last resort, but I will not be placed in jeopardy by ANY animal.

If that upsets anybody's delicate sensibilities, I'd be happy to give you the directions to the road I went down and the location of the house. I'll let you discuss the situation with the dog. He probably won't bother to reply because he will be busy ripping your leg apart. But hey.. if it makes you feel better, go for it.

Give me a ****ing break.

someone should close this thread.

A speed limit does only gives you the right to travel at that speed in optimum conditions. i.e No unpredictable situations ahead. A dog is unpredictable.

I've heard diluted amonia stops everything (including dogs), now if I can only find a good delivery system.
Ideas anyone?

Only when all the dogs are dead.

"I m going to start carrying the most effective solution I can conveniently carry and use if needed...Seems the general consensus that the best solution is a streaming pepper spray." dobovedo



I have been a dog owner most of my life, dealt with dogs on my paper route as a kid, in a town without any leash law, been nipped and scared ****less too many times by dogs that "don't bite" (according to their owners) and a couple of weeks ago I was bitten on a ride. At 50+ years I am tired of the hassle, dobovedo has the right idea. Personally I am going to go with the "Pepper Mace Bear Spray. This powerful Magnum Fogger sprays up to 30 feet! Both sizes empty in approximately 5.4 seconds."

p.s.- For a historical perspective on this matter.

I'm not quite ready to close this, but it's close.
let me state this as clearly as I can.
no matter what your position is on dogs, dog ownership or the best way to
stop a charging dog, we expect a degree of respect toward each other.
so, no name calling, no trolling and no personal attacks, any of these will precipitate
warnings, infractions, closing thread, and other actions up to and including banning.

lotek