I've never heard of a company called Rivendale.... but if you mean Rivendell I can't really comment on their greed as I don't know their expenses or profit margin, there are however obvious differences in the frame geometries and construction methods from most bikes. Can you give us some examples of bikes similar to the Saluki or Rambouillet.

The non Taiwan Rivendell frames are expensive, they will be selling a road frame and fork made by Waterford for $2k soon. However, that's not bad for a waterford frame given that Riv have to include some costs and profit in the price. You could probably get the same frame from
small builder like Circle A Cycles for $1500.

Yeah those guys at Rivendell are all rolling in the money. :rolleyes:

scratches
 

I was getting some chain suck on my (US-made) Bombadil -- chain wedged between chainring and chainstay. It took off some paint and a bit of the metal.

I showed this to Grant at Rivendell, and he just smiled. He recommends just stamping down hard on the pedal and driving the chain off the stay by force; removing a little metal is no biggie. Jay was standing there too and he said there's nothing to worry about with these bikes structurally.

Figure I'll have the bike for 30-40 years, so it's gonna pick up a few dings anyway. (BTW I see people talking about the price: you should divide the price by the number of years the bike can be expected to last -- then the differences seem minimal, given the difference in quality.)

Has anybody here looked at or considered the Bob Jackson "Off-the-Peg" frames?

the End-End for light touring and the World Tour for Loaded:

http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/de...cefd38719942a1

if you register and are from the US, VAT will be subtracted from the pricing. I'm a little savings away from an End-End at $675 shipped.

What crankset, with what rings, and what length BB did you get the chain suck? Just want to know as I'm putting one together now.

chain suck
 

This was the standard Sugino Riv puts on, with a wide Phil BB, whatever that is -- again all standard for them; check their site. The suck came on the fresh equipment if I wasn't careful to take all the force off the middle ring when shifting to the granny ring. If I had it under any more than minimal force, the chain adhered to the bottom of the middle ring and came up over the stay. Seems to be getting better now that the rings are broken in a bit. You might have less trouble with steel rings if you can get them; mine are Alu.
One of the boys at Riv suggested another solution: take a few links out of the chain. I might have if the problem had continued.
Also, I have a long-cage XT derailleur in the rear; its lever force against the chain might be less than that of the short cage, putting it just under the threshold of force needed to peel the chain away from the bottom of the front chainring in time to keep it from running up the chainstay -- of course this isn't an alternative available for all gearing ranges, but unless you insist on big/big, you might try the short cage.

Rivendell
 

I'll just add a data point, keeping in mind that pride of ownership can distort recommendations and assessment of other bikes.

I can only tell you that when I got back into cycling in 04, I test rode an absurd number of models. No joy, no fit. I did not try the LHT or a Gunnar, I must add.

The Rivendell philosophy on Fit as described on the site was compelling enough to buy a 60cm Ramboulliet, but the 60 felt a bit too big. I think Grant tends to oversize. So they sent me a 58, allowing me to keep the 58 and 60 "as long as I needed" to determine which was best. The 58 emerged as the correct size.

The fit and ride are simply wonderful. I sense little BB flex. The handling characterstics are mezmering. Hyperbolic? I don't think so.

I do not know what I'd replace it with. I'm sure all the bikes mentioned so far are excellent. A custom Waterford is a temptation, perhaps just to own a Waterford.

So another humble vote for Rivendell. A used Atlantis or Ramb would probably not disappoint. Lastly, I bought my bike to ride -- hard. I don't mind chips but the frame remains in surprisingly good cosmetic condition. I think the paint is softish when new but tends to harden with time.
Dave
Chambersburg, PA
717-263-0128

Phoobo, post some pictures will ya. Despite your chain suck, you have one of the best looking bikes ever made.

I just finished my Gunnar Fastlane. It's a new model that evolved from the Gunnar Crosshairs. It is made for touring/commuting. It has a lower BB drop than the Crosshairs and a longer wheelbase. I think it is rated for 50lbs in the touring sense. I am planning on using a BoB Ibex and a light Pannier in front possibly. I live about 15mins from the Waterford crew and they were wonderfully helpful with the process.

I also here that there is another small steel frame maker in Waterford...shhhh! Ellis is the name. My next Steelie is going to be a Waterford or Ellis Lugged Tour / Ranonneur

http://waterfordbikes.com/now/home.p...ommand=showall

http://www.elliscycles.com/index.html

kinda funny, but I see it the exact opposite way. To me Rivendell has the same clique-ness that makes Roadies so unaproachable, the same pretentiousness that scares people away from anything. My sense of aleination from them is enhanced by the fact that I do own some lycra (and like it, please don't tell Grant), the fact that I hate platform pedals for all but the most relaxed riding, and the fact that while friction shifting has it's place, indexed is much better.

Although what really irks me about Rivendell is how they managed to turn utility cycling into a hobby for the wealthy. You don't need a $2000 frame to have a good 'all-rounder,' it doesn't have to be hand brazed in japan, outfitted with only hand sewn canvas bags and satin finished components. By selling the uber-elite accesories, they create the illusion that you need these things in order to be a utlity cyclist, that once you get your Long-flap you can finally live without your car, that once you get your nitto rack, then you can go camping.

I guess they just seem a little opposed to my 'Just ride your bike already' philosophy.

Get a Mercian. You'll never look back.

fuzz2050 I do see your point, although I think Riv is not different than any other cycling company in that they are trying to sell a product(s). Just because they have nice and expensive frames, bags, racks, etc doesn't mean they are trying to be elitist it means they sell expensive stuff to people who most likely have the money for it. In fact if you look closely most of the parts they spec the bikes with tend to be on the "lower" end side of the spectrum. The guys at Riv just value a nice tweed bag more so than the lightest cassette or electronic shifting. And yes I do have a bag of theirs, and no I couldn't really afford it. But I do like my eggbeaters and wear lycra on occasion.
There really is nothing better than a good debate on a 5 year old thread. The op is probably dead and gone or at least he's probably already worn out the bike he decided to buy.

Unless of course it's a Rivendell:thumb:

My real problem, is that Rivendells look so nice, and cost more than I can ever possibly afford.

I completely disagree. I think that many of the writings posted in the "read" section of their website embrace a "just ride your bike already" philosophy at its very core. The basic message is that you don't need special clothing or shoes to ride, your bike should be comfortable (wide tires, fenders, more upright position, proper frame size), practical (baskets, racks and bags) and simple to use and repair (steel frames, friction shifting, 8 speed or less).

I recall a short article in the last Rivendell Reader that pointed out the usefulness of old steel mountain bikes from the 1980s as townies or commuters. That's hardly elitist.

In contrast to your statement, I think that many other bike companies (and certainly more than a few bike shops) are opposed to a "just ride your bike already" philosophy with their marketing of racing frames to non-racers and the accompanying shopping list of clothing, shoes, pedal systems, etc.

so is the same feeling extended to companies such as Velo Orange or Heron? I know they aren't exactly the same but I always sort of lumped them together.

FWIW I have never purchased anything from Rivbike but I have from velo orange as it is just around the bend from where I have meetings now and then. I sort of concider it a LBS though it really isn't at all. I just would rather stay out of Performance or that ilk as they don't carry much that suits me.

first off ride what you like. but for my two cents rivendale is like any other luxury items part of the price comes from the name. there like the Maserati of bicycles. To be honest they make cool looking bikes for someone that makes good money and doesn't own a car it could be a cool option. personally if i was gonna spend that much on a machine i would just buy an old used japanese motorcycle (you can easily spend less the 1,000 on one and you don't have to pedal them), I don't think i could ever live with myself after dropping 2 grand on a bike frame when there are still tons of used bicycles around (with lugged steel frames and cool paint jobs) I can tinker with and rebuild to fit whatever i want or desire i have for a bicycle. but i'm alittle diffrent I like making old cheap things work like new again rather then just buying an off the shelf model. I got a '89 trek 400 for free years ago and have spent a considerable amount of money on upgrades but now its a custom machine more custom then any rivendale i would argue.

Not to get to off base here but wasn't part of the the old bridgestone philosophy making bicycles people needed and making them affordable? wasn't that why to RB-1 was such a neat bike? it was just like an italian road racer but 200 dollars cheaper? I do like that they buck trends and perhaps making expensive bikes is the only way they can stay afloat in this current market.

anyway i'm gonna shut up now i suppose if everyone just went after the cheap used bicycles they wouldn't be cheap, (these seems to be happening anyway)

But my qualm is they take the idea of a 'practical bike' and turn even that into a costly endeavour. Their grocery bag is $40, their 'simple' shifters cost as much as new 10 speed shimano bar ends, a small saddlebag (just big enough for tools and maybe a snack, is $50.

If you had to outfit your commuter from Riv, well, you would have to sell your car.

Yes . . . some of the Riv stuff is high priced . . . but no more so than other retailers selling the same things . . .like Velo-Orange , Jitensha Studio and the like.

They are who they are though . . and need not make any apologies. They have their intended market and if it works for them, it works. They're not there as a public service for budget watching. Don't criticize and apple for not being an orange.

Keep in mind too, they don't do cheap Chinese goods. Many of fabric items are made in a Country that pays a decent wage. We've all been so Walmart-ized we think if someone asks $40 for a bag we're being ripped off.

Their Silver shifters are made from the Suntour tooling that made them originally. I thought they had bought the tooling themselves . . .and I'm sure it wasn't cheap. You can always just buy the pods and get some ST Sprint shifters on eprey on the cheap. I've got about 4-5 pairs and I paid not much for them at a time no one wanted them.

They can't compete with Shimano stuff, as they have legacy tooling as old as dirt . . .so things can be cheaper. Take Shimano hubs . . . the only reason they're so cheap and they've stuck with cup/cones is they have the tooling. Notice no one else makes a new hub with cup/cones? Cartridge bearings are so much more easy for the user . . . . easily replaceable. . . unlike Shimano non replaceable bearing cups. Good parts cost money. . . . and it seems Shimano's shrewd but effective way of making cheap cassette hubs keeps most budget oriented persons riding their hubs, buying their cassettes and on and on. Riv sells the cheap Shimano hubs for their wheels. . . which I think they had to do to keep customers and prices down as Phil Wood FW hubs were their bread and butter in the beginning . When the FW supply dwindled . . . they had to do something besides a $$$ Phil Cassette hub.

It's just a place to shop . . . take it . . or leave it really.

"But my qualm is they take the idea of a 'practical bike' and turn even that into a costly endeavour. Their grocery bag is $40, their 'simple' shifters cost as much as new 10 speed shimano bar ends, a small saddlebag (just big enough for tools and maybe a snack, is $50.

If you had to outfit your commuter from Riv, well, you would have to sell your car."

I think you have a point, but at the end of the day, what should the model be? People that push simplicity of a sort, and quality, it is pretty tough to get price in there also. I'm wearing a 3.50 t-shirt at the moment. I have worn the same brand touring. But how will sales of that support the presence Riv has.

One has to hope an atlantis frame will actually be better on the road than a Nashbar, or satisfy folks who have a vintage craving. One of the things about the old stuff was that it wasn't available in the day. We had one good touring frame place in Toronto, and they were mostly Campi. I saw my first Phil hubs on a road trip to Bufallo NY (Pre CNC billet hubs, hand machined basically the same price as today but gas isn't 35 cents a gallon). There was a lot of cool stuff back then but we either didn't have the money, or the product wasn't available. Real world, who will buy the 7 speed freewheel touring hubs they are selling? I would. 50 years old, and I can sorta afford them. I think he knows his customers.

Just bought a new pick-up and it cost about 20x an atlantis. Cheapest one I could find that would take the family.

Actually Velo Orange has some things for a lot less than riv. Just bought my first Riv order, and their post to Canada is a whole lot better than many places.

"They can't compete with Shimano stuff, as they have legacy tooling as old as dirt . . .so things can be cheaper. Take Shimano hubs . . . the only reason they're so cheap and they've stuck with cup/cones is they have the tooling. Notice no one else makes a new hub with cup/cones? Cartridge bearings are so much more easy for the user . . . . easily replaceable"

I wonder, the tooling to make the actual cups and cones would be pretty cheap, not so sure about cold forging, sounds very expensive that, but they change the shapes a lot...

I just bought some White hubs with cartridge bearings. I doubt they are as easy to service as the shimano. I probably should have got the Phil. I think there is a lot to be said for loose bearings, but it is also another one of those religious bike arguments that persists long after the rest of the tool using world has moved on.

I'm going to be buying some new wheels . . . and I was considering White or Phil hubs. I've downloaded the White hub service manual . . .and it appears rather simple. Have you taken it apart and had problems? I'd like to know so you may save me from buying them :)

I've used hubs with cup and cones (CC), and with Cartridge. Vintage Campy hubs will last forever . . . and I've never had a problem with the races. Shimano was another story . . .I had some 105 hubs for the early 90's that lasted about a year before pitting badly. . . . and I'm a qualified mechanic who takes care of stuff. Pissed me off to Shimano . My vintage Stumpjumper has Specialized cartdrige bearing hubs . . . and they will last forever. This bike is from 1983. I have multiple sets of cartridge hubs . . . no problems . . . . .needless to say . . .I'm sold on cartridge bearing hubs. Going back to CC would be a big step backwards for me. There's not alot of choices though in 135mm hubs. . . either it's cheap Shimano or $$$ ones. It was so much easier just buying Phil FW hubs . . . but the bike I'm building would do better with a cassette hub because of limited chainring fitting.

For the record those shifters are made by dia compe, and wholesale cost about 28 bucks from the manuf.

Riv did not 'buy the tooling'

Well here it is then, loaded for bear in Hungary. (Bear goes on the front.)

(Turns out there are no bears in Hungary; update from Romania forthcoming.)

Lighter packing job than the California trip, but take my word for it, it doesn't complain at all with a load on the front.

Sorry about the orientation of the pic. Think of it as a neck exercise.

Garth, So far I have only received the one White hub, a front 32 hole that I finally settled on after a year of procrastination for my Rohloff bike. It is beautiful, and the shape will go nicely with the big hub in the back because it has a swollen look like Rohloff, though no larger than the average front hub. It is pretty stunning. I have White Ind cranks and BB for the same bike, and some polished Paul brakes, I think it will look pretty nice, and work really well.

As far as hub rebuilds are concerned, it only takes a 2mm key to get in there, but I think I read while scanning the instructions that one had to press the new bearings in place. If a bearing went bad that does not sound road fixable, while the Phil is now designed to be road fixable, so that was a pretty big screw-up on my part since the whole idea of a Rohloff hub adventure touring deal is ultimate reliability and if anything goes wrong the maximum ease of repair.

Worst things about loose bearings are the mess of getting in there and the cone wrenches. The actual work of a complete replace and grease pack is pretty quick and easy, and the result is a nearly new hub. So I like that about them. Some say the best ultimate billet hub is the DT because it has high end billet (hardened axle) features and is a loose bearings hub.

I have a 40 hole front and back white hub coming, and the price is right, and the Ti arbour sounds like a good way to remove a weak part and do it at lower cost and weight than the Phil. Upside of Phils are the spoke length can be the same front and back (unless one has disc brakes), and the hubs are road fixable. To some degree the White Ind stuff might be better on a closer to home bike like the MTB it is designed for.

Thanks for the reply about the White Hubs . . . it seems there isn't a perfect solution . I've never had a cartridge hub bearing go bad . . and if it did . . . it is still ridable. I just don't trust a cup/cone hub like a Shimano XT as if the races fail . . .you're screwed. I know many people use them, but they're not for me. I don't build my own wheels, not do I like tinkering with them. Once you get a set built by a master wheelbuilder, there's no going back. I'd love to pay $300 less for a set of wheels, but I always think long term. Then again, the price difference is so great I can get two rear wheels built with XT hubs for the price of one with White or Phil. Ouch.

This is my first foray into cassette hubs . . .and I'm not liking what I see really . The Whites will probably do me okay, as I don't need a field serviceable hub. The adjustment with a 2mm wrench seems a little odd though. . . but from what I hear they stand behind their products pretty well.

If you approach this from a more analytical level, it is much easier to grasp.

1) Welding highend steel tubing (lugged or not) is not rocket science.
2) Neither is it a high and incomprehensible art form.
3) Riv provides high end one-stop-shopping for a particular type of customer and cycling activity.
4) For some cyclists, that combination of quality and service is enough, even if at an unnecessarily high price.
5) Very strong brand, like Rolex, which is not the best automatic watch in the world.

Riv offers quality products with a strong brand.

I, on the other hand, enjoy building up my own bikes for specific purposes. The world is full of great frame builders.

Garth, the 2mm wrench goes in from the side, just inside of the dropout, like a spoke. There are three cap head screws that bear on something in there. What this does is allow one to lock the endcap onto the spindle to assemble the hub. I am describing the MI6 hub here. I thought it looked a little flimsy, but one has to keep in mind that the hub has a 15 mm axle in there and commensurate bearings, unlike the Phil road hubs (not sure which comes out better on that). So the screws are well out from the center and would have good purchase.

I assume that this hub should be plug and play and not require roadside care for all but the most heroic enterprises. I reviewed the instructions and one can hammer on new bearings using a pipe or socket to spread the load, so a remote repair would be possible.

In general I have had very little break down on decent quality bikes. I think the LX hubs are pretty bombproof, I just like the upper end candy stuff also. Though my bikes seem reliable, I still like the idea of uber reliability as a goal, though few of us will actually need it. I'm at the lower end of the "I have fallen down and I can't get up" age bracket, so I like the idea of extra reliable stuff

I know I'm a bit late to the party, but here's my two cents:

Riv makes great frames, but like all other limited-production builders they aren't a very good value. While Surly frames might not be built with absolute attention to every detail, does that really matter as far as riding experience goes? No one has been able to convince me that the Atlantis or other gourmet frame is worth the $2K you'll pay for it vs the $400 you'll be for a LHT frame. In practical terms the latter will work just as well as the former, and for about $1500 you can put together a complete LHT with nice, durable components that will take you around the world just as well as a complete Atlantis that will set you back at least $3500 :rolleyes:

And I know I'll catch lots of s**t for those, but I'll say it anyway... To me paying more than about $2K+ for a complete bike is just an extravagant waste. To me one of the most appealing things about cycling is that it's an efficient, healthy, and inexpensive form of transportation. When you're getting to the point of spending as much for a bike as you would for a decent used car you've completely lost sight of what cycling is all about. $3-4K+ for a bike just seems silly to me.

Agreed. I think Rivendell bikes are beautiful and seem extremely well-made. I also love much of their general philosophy about riding non-race bikes and componetry.

Like Alan said, I just can't see spending more than my honda civic for a bicycle.

I agree with this, with qualification: I dont see any sense spending that much on a bike that is 20 year-old technology, simply because only a few manuf. make nice lugged frames anymore... However, if you're living car free, I can certainly see the draw to new technologies that represent advances in utility such as the Rohloff hub, SON HUB dynamo plus integrated LED lights, hydraulic disk brakes, etc. etc. Thats much easier for me to understand...