Why say it then?

Actually I elaborated.....but in this case mostly because I have 40 minutes left of work before I leave for my GAP tour and I am slacking hardcore.

See my posts don't have to be utilitarian either :)

Don't take the internet too seriously, you know what they say about arguing on it.

I don't want a Rivendell particularly badly [or I'd own one], but I can't imagine why anyone would argue that owning a Rivendell and owning a LHT are equivalent. They are different on a number of different levels - including stuff like the social groups that have formed around the companies that bike ownership allows you to participate in.

If you like a Rivendell, the lugs, the paint, the ride, the Rivendell club, etc.. Go for it. It's your money.

The argument could go the other way with a Windsor Tourist owner asking a LHT owner why bother waste the extra money on a boutique brand like Surly? After all they both have two wheels, you can tour on 'em, they are mass produced overseas, but one costs way more.

A garage fell in on it. While BMW owners don't have to quantify the performance characteristics of their replacement car, the car being replaced is specified in the policy covering it.

My point was just that, I don't know if my adjuster would have as hard a time grasping the difference between a $1k bike and a $3k bike, as he did between an $80 bike and a $1000 bike. The latter is a much bigger leap, percentage-wise.

Can someone please explain to me why red is better than yellow?

My bike is yellow. Therefore, yellow is bettah like buttah...

There is another point though in all this, if you are spending $3,000 on a bicycle, you should really check with some of the local custom builders, some of them can build a very nice bike for $3,000. Because they are making the frame, they can build it to fit the rider, rather then trying to fit a mass produced bicycle from overseas. Mind you, for me I would have to win the lotto first, and even then I would keep my current bike for shopping and beating on, and just use the nice bike for touring longer distance day rides. Problem is it would really cost me $6,000 because I would need to get one for the better half as well...... :D

Restricting this to the frame, does any of this make the Riv stronger? Even the Riv site says the lugs are just there to be pretty. I'm not bashing, I'm thinking of upgrading from my LHT as it's a bit bendy for a big guy, but I haven't heard any objective reason to suspect that the the Riv is less so.

Funny. Next time, pick a better garage!

There is that, but regardless the recovery for a loss is based on what is lost not the cheapest imaginable replacement.

The "why not a $80 bike?" question can be applied to nearly everything that one can lose (think of furniture).

Yes, but the performance gap is bigger too! Anyway, your adjuster is just being dumb or your insurance company is bad. If your Rolex was the thing that was crushed, the adjustor would really not get anywhere suggesting that a $10 watch is equivalent. If you can establish (ie, document) that what you lost cost $1000, then that is what the insurance should pay.

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I think what Rivendell is saying is just that the lugs aren't going to be any stronger than a well-build welded frame.

For your situation, I would not expect any particular magic from any frame unless it says that it is intending to solve your particular problem (being a "big guy"). I'd be hesitant in your situation not to be able to try the thing being purchased. One advantage of a custom (or semi-custom) frame, is that the builder can modify the frame to address your particular issues. I wonder if looking into Seven frames might be the way to go for you.

http://www.sevencycles.com/

Rivendell is targetting a person who wants a good frame with a particular style (nothing wrong with that). If you don't care about that style aspect, then there are other manufacturers to consider. Look at what Bruce Gorden has. The Cannondale T1/T2 might even work for you.

You might even look at (try) some "stiff" racing bicycles to see what kind of BB flex you experience with them. If these have a similar problem, it might mean your expectations aren't reasonable. The fact is, that there's flex in every frame especially when standing and pedalling hard.

The idea of a custom bike is a valid idea, but I have followed a number of custom bike stories from idea through construction and in a significant number of cases the resulting bike isn't exactly what the buyer had in mind. Sometimes the difference caused problems and sometimes it was not a problem, but a difference of expectations between the builder and the customer. In any case one nice thing about production bikes is you can validate how you feel about a specific model based on reviews, owners reports, test rides, etc.. and when you get the bike you can expect the product to be the same as the bikes you researched.

I bought an expensive touring frame recently - the cost was at the lower end of the custom frame spectrum. I considered a custom bike, but realized that since my body is normally proportioned that I preferred to have a nice production frame I could count on than a custom frame that might suit me a bit better, but also might disappoint me. In the end I've been happy with my choice.

Very good points. (I think Seven can be considered semi-custom.)

If you don't have any particular issues you are trying to address, an off-the-peg bike is the much better value. At the least, if you crash it, it will be much cheaper to replace!

Agreed..

but just to make a point are there not models from Rivendell that are "off the peg" albet in a smaller number of production?

Yes, but I think he was replying to my suggestion to questor (who has a particular issue). (Since Rivendell isn't custom, he can't be talking about Rivendell.)

It is funnier now. They gave us a taj mahal of a garage, perhaps out of anticipated savings on the bicycle. But then they did give us the $1k eventually, we just had to spell out why. It's interesting to explain something like that to a disinterested (or utterly uninterested) person.

Not to get too far off topic, you would have to pick a builder that has experience in building the kind of bike you want to ride. Going to a guy who builds full carbon 2kg racing bikes, to build a Chromo touring bike will probably be a bad experience. Going to a guy who has spent 25 years building nothing, but touring bikes, to build your touring rig and letting him guide the process, will be a good experience. As for frames, well, some people would be better on a custom frame, people who don't fit the 90th percentile height range for example, or people with an unusual build, may not fit a production frame well.

Hey if someone wants a Rivendell and they can afford it, then good for them, although for that kind of money, there are other choices, custom being one of them, which is why I put it out there.

You make good points. If you are not a good fit on a production frame or your dream bike is so unique nobody makes a production frame anything like it a custom bike is the logical alternative. However, I think what you need to factor in to the analysis and what many folks don't seem to consider is that the bike in your head and the bike you walk out the builder's shop will likely not be the same. How close you get depends on a lot of things. You suggestion to go to a builder who has loads of experience building the type bike you want is a good one.

For a lot of people custom isn't necessary and if you are comparing a Riv to a custom bike I think you have to factor in the fact that you can test ride a Riv, hold it in your hand and talk to other owners of the model that interests you before you drop the $$$. That's a big pro for buying a production frame.

I only take the time to make this point because I so often read online people talk about custom bikes with the implied assumption that they are better than a production bike and in the cases I've actually followed there are substantial numbers of people who got expensive custom bikes made that didn't love them because they got a different bike than they expected. So I think custom bikes are custom bikes....maybe better.....maybe not better than a production frame. You have to determine if the risks outweigh the potential benefits on a case by case basis.

The folks that sold me an expensive production frame would been happy to have built me a custom frame. I'm a bike geek so I have some ideas that I could have incorporated into a custom bike that would have made it very special to me. But on balance I realized I'd rather have a production bike I knew I would love [test ride, reviews, established performance specs] than a custom bike I might love a bit better or that might actually be less to my liking.

In the most recent article of Bicycle Quarterly, Jan Heine wrote an article that basically said the same thing.

You can go to a custom builder with a lot of experience building a certain kind of bike and ask him "build me one like that," and get a bike "like" his past work, maybe with a few tweaks. But if you go true "custom" - something really unique - almost by definition you're getting something so "custom" that you're almost getting a prototype (esp. if the builder doesn't have years of experience).

He ended up suggesting (I think seriously) that if you want something really unique you might have to get two frames -- work with the builder to build your "dream" bike, but don't spend money painting it or doing anything fancy. Ride it enough to know what needs to change, and then have a second frame built that "fixes" anything wrong with the first one.

I am not advocating or defending the point of view, just passing along another caution about custom bikes.

(BTW, I have a custom bike, and love it).

While these are points are correct, I bet these kinds of problems never really happen. Most people buying a custom frame are going to be aware of bicycle differences and talk to an appropriate builder (that's the whole point of going custom). For many reasons, a custom builder who builds a carbon bike isn't going to agree to build something he really has no experience building. Keep in mind that custom builders have reputations to maintain.

I think this could be an issue if the customer doesn't listen to the advice of the builder. The builder is probably (hopefully) not going to do just anything the customer asks since they won't be able to guarantee that wierd requests are going to work. There would be a problem if there was no way of being able to try the bicycle but the builder might have models that could be used for that.

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Yes. But I'd say these are really two different things. The typical (rational) reason people go to custom is to tune the size of or add accessories to an existing design. Ideally, you'd choose a builder whose existing designs match what you are looking for. If you want something "really unique", it's quite possible that you'd get something that the builder would not put his/her name on!

I'm either very savvy (not) or very lucky or Bilenky is very good. I'll go with the latter two.

The man knew what I wanted better than I did. The bike I got scared me. Turns out to be better than anything I had hoped for. Oddly enough—cheaper than a Riv, but I still appreciate their style.

+1 on Bilenky. Custom bikes handmade in America by a fellow who once wrote a 180 page NSF paper entitled: "community design for optimal energy and resource utilization"

Now that is something I can support with my hard-earned. :)

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICDocs/data...0/32/f6/69.pdf

Or I could spend more money to send the work abroad and buy into some excellent marketing... But that would not be such a Good Thing (tm)

One problem with many Rivendell or Surley LHT "zealots" is that they appear not to realize that there are alternatives that are, at least, just as good.

Excellent point.

As I said above, my experience in getting a custom frame was fantastic. I didn't know exactly what I wanted in a frame, but I knew what I wanted the bike to *do,* and that's what I got.

I'm having a second custom frame built now - I gave the builder some very specific capabilities I wanted the bike to have (e.g,. tire size, fender clearance) and some descriptions of the stock bikes that were *close* to what I wanted, and off he went. The total cost of this frame will be substantially less than the price of a Rivendell.

That being said - I'd love to own a Rivendell. I watch all the used ones in my size that come up for sale -- unfortunately (or fortunately for their owners) they hold their value really well.

I was using that as an illustration, personally I think carbon fibre reinforced plastic as a frame material is over rated, but I don't want to really get into that. However most of us who would even entertain a custom bike are looking for something, for example the ability to put wider tires on then usual or to deal with a fit issue, and custom would deal with that. Then again some people want custom because they want a bicycle that is made by a local craftsman rather then by slaves in a factory on the other side of the planet. If the cost is the same or very close, why not?

Having said all that though, once in the owners possession all bikes get customized to some degree, so why not start at the building stage?

I realize it's just an illustration but what it is illustrating isn't a real problem. People going through the inconvenience and expense of going custom are very likely to have the sense to pick a builder who has experience building the type of bike they want. And if they don't, any reputable builder will say "no".

Even people building up bikes from a frame/fork are not getting a custom bike. They are using off the shelf parts to build their ride. I built up my LHT from parts...their isn't an identical Trucker on the planet, but the only part on the bike that is actually custom is the mud flap I made from a milk jug.

Mixing and matching production parts is a cost effective way to get a specific set of performance and aesthetic results with minimal risk. I can use some Shimano Dura Ace barcons with SRAM Jag Wire cables and a XT reverse rise rear derailleur to get my LHT to shift with little risk, reasonable cost and it meets my preferences, but it's not really custom. Not one of those parts was made for me to my specs. The bike industry is just standardized enough we can mix and match a fair bit.

If the parts we use on our bikes weren't made in the thousands to a common standard of functionality they would just be way too expensive to use and wouldn't be particularly versatile. Although we treat custom with an implied assumption that it will be better than production I don't think that's necessarily the case. Production parts & frames have lots of things going for them.

If you have me the option of a production Riv and a custom bike of equal value I'd likely choose the Riv because I'd know exactly what I was getting. Both in terms of function and aesthetics.

There are really three kinds of bicycles, at least for this purpose, production bikes, semi-custom and full custom (sort of).

Production bikes like the Surlys, Rivendells, Treks, etc, have a good mix of components for the average rider in that class of bicycle, although you do have to put up with whatever the factory puts on it component wise, or expect to change things out. Your also stuck with whatever the factory decides is a good paint colour that year, and sometimes what they choose make you wonder if they been smokin' some really bad stuff lately.....

Semi-custom bikes start out with a production frame, but allows the buyer to pick and choose components, they want, good if they want something unusual, like a touring bike with a disc brake on the front and drum on the rear.... Almost needed these days for a rider who wants more then one spoke on a racing bike wheel....:D

Full custom allows the buyer to have a frame built specially to their needs, this is good for someone who is an unusual height or build. For example a guy who has the height to play pro basketball, may have a hard time fitting a production frame, a person who could easily fit in with a group of munchkins, would have a difficulty with a production frame, a person with an unusual build, like short legs and long torso or very long legs and a short torso, can benefit from a custom frame. Heck a guy who is normal height but wears size 14 shoes can benefit from a custom frame that has the right build to reduce toe slap and heel strike.

You all make very good points that fully custom bikes might be necessary for the minute % of riders who are unusually built. However, most people I've seen riding custom bikes aren't physically atypical, and I'd bet most ride custom bikes for the same reason other people wear a Rolex and/or drive a Lexus: as a status symbol. Sure custom bikes are nice, but totally unnecessary for the vast majority of riders. In most cases a custom bike is simply extravagant.

Yes, but since this is the Rivendell thread, I think we have to remember that the discussion about custom bikes was initiated because Rivendells are non-custom bikes that are even more expensive than many custom built machines.

So if custom bikes are extravagant, how would you describe an even more expensive factory-made bike?

How much do custom bikes even cost? I sure there is a wide range, but I figured the cost would be upward of $2k depending on the frame maker and material. I see alot of off the shelf carbon fiber frames that cost much more than two grand and those are relatively cheap to construct am I not correct.
Rivs are pricey, but the only the most expensive models are around $2k. They have a quite a few that are much cheaper than that and if you want custom from Riv it will obviously be more.
One thing I wish Riv would do would be to have the polished lugs. It seems a shame to cover all the tubing and lugs with the same color paint.

Typically $1,000 to $2,000 for steel, depending on tubing, maker, construction, etc.