For what it is worth, I used go to the Rivendell shop pretty regularly, they are on my biking route home from work, and the folks there LOVE Surlys. Their opinion seems to be a lot on the lines of that they realize they are expensive, sort of a boutique bike, and Surly is the next best thing. They are very convinced Rivendell is the absolute best thing. Last time I was there they had a Surly Big Dummy they were playing with and were totally excited about.

I am a Rivendell admirer and believe that they offer a refreshing point of view compared to most bike manufacturers. Unfortunately, Rivs also have become very expensive. Five years ago, you could buy a Rambouillet for less than $1,000 including frame, fork and headset. Now a comparably Riv frame is nearly $2,000. That price inflation is probably higher than health care costs have gone up.

My main gripe with Rivendell is their attempt to force-feed 650b wheels on their customers. They have pretty much abandoned 700c bikes in their attempt to make 650b the new standard. The Rambouillet was their best-selling frame and they quit making it so they could "persuade" their customers to buy Bleriots and other 650b frames. That's when I wrote off Rivendell. I was in the market for a commuter/touring frame but did not want a bike with wheels incompatible with my other bikes. If a spoke breaks on the wheel of my commuter bike, I want to be able to swap a wheel from another one of my road bikes rather than having to wait to get it fixed. I also did not want to spend a premium for odd-sized wheels and tires.

My solution? I bought a Bob Jackson World Tour from England for less than 1/3 the cost of a Rivendell frame. In fact, I built up the entire bike for much less than a Riv frame. However, there are plenty of other inexpensive alternatives to Rivendell -- including Salsa, Soma, Surly, Gunnar and some custom builders.

I think their main problem with price increases has to do with the dollar/yen exchange rate.

Well.......

The new Roadeo is 700c.

Sam Hillborne is 700c in size 56 and 60.

Bombadil is 700c in 60 and 64.

A. Homer Hilsen is 700c.

What can be said is that the folks at Rivendell have determined that 650b is the best choice for frames of a certain size and use. There is no attempt at establishing a "new standard."

Actually, according to their sizing guidelines and my height (6'2" - I'm not a giant), they do not have a 650b frame for me that isn't a mixte. I guess they're force-feeding me the 700c wheel.

I like the Rivendell line of bikes and the "life-style" they endorse....it appeals to my sense of the different, out-of-the-normal, more-is-less grumpy old man nature; I am sortofa grumpy old man; I'm 57. I was in Santa Monica on Sunday (9/27) and spotted an A. Homer Hilsen locked-up along Third Street. At first I thought someone had done a nice job of converting an older road bike into a fendered urban/cyclo-tourist bike but then I saw the name on the downtube. I was underwhelmed by the bike's lack of "flashiness". No shinning chrome, loud colors or unusual design features. At first I thought to myself "geez, all that money for a bike that looks so plain". Then I realized that it's more a finely crafted machine build for a specific type of service and years of use with minimal repair/service in mind; kinda like a classic car that some people keep and maintain for hundreds of thousands of miles and still use on a daily basis. I'm still considering an Atlantis but am researching, have been for about 5 years now, other brands to make my "lifetime investment" bike; don't want to spend $3-5,000.00 only to realize that something else would've been better for me. PG.

So true. I think a lot of people don't know what they want, even down to knowing their size. Ordering over the net without the builder seeing one can lead to severe mistakes. Returns are a problem for both sides.

I think that kind of thing exists with customs that are well enough known, but stock bikes should have more buzz and the consumer thing is a lot cheaper, so more bang for the buck. In some areas, people are buying stuff mostly to participate in the buying and reviewing thing, and not the doing thing. Came across this from knife makers, where understandably few people really need a survival knife say, but they buy the stuff and "test" it as they read about it being tested in the magazines.

With Surly, and a few others, they are actually doing more interesting bikes than the custom makers. There are probably a lot of custom builders (established in particular) who would not have wanted to do the Big Dummy, or Pugsly. They have their own groove, and the cost of doing weird bikes one off, with special wheels is too high. And what client would have asked for it. So in certain cases the stock guys are more fun.

I haven't exactly written RBW off, but I agree with your sentiments. I bought a Ram frame for $1200 and built it up myself and love it. I can't warm to the 650b and "Country" bikes they are pushing now. I was excited by the Roadie, but found it to be too close to a Ram clone. So for less money than a built up Roadie I bought myself a De Rosa Neo Primato and a Dura Ace build kit.......sweeeet!