C Dunlop

This thread is a continuation of my last, but is different enought that I thought it should start on a fresh page.

Previous thread here : https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...uild-questions

In summary, I was thinking of a LHT build for an alaska-south america ride.

The recurring criticism was in relation to wheels. I don't want to spend 9 months on a 26in-wheeled road bike, but have also been made aware of the problem of wheel availability and lifespan (ie, i may need 1, more likely 2 new rims, given the length of my planned route.) This would probably be a PITA.

I went to my friendly LBS the other day. They recommended a salsa fargo for my needs. If I all of a sudden become financially stricken, they reccomended a kona sutra. In short, the guy (who has ridden across australia and who I trust) seemed to think that 'disc brakes are the future for touring'.

Is there a consensus on disc brakes for touring? I generally get ~2000km out of a set of pads on a mountain bike, being raced and ridden at race-pace exclusively.

I personally don't see any down-sides. I could easily fit 10+ pairs of Avid pads into the spares kit. I might need new rotors halfway (but I doubt) and it would avoid the rim destruction issue. There are plenty of disc brake rims available in 36h-29in (700c) for mountain bike use.

So - it'd be built up something like this:

Salsa fargo frameset.
King or Cane creek headset
xt 36h disc/mavic a719/dt comp wheels (i'd still like to be able to fit a road wheel in an emergency.
deore cranks w/ middleburn slickshift hardcoat 46/34/24 rings
xt rd
xt fd
deore cassette
avid bb7s
bar - perhaps a titec jones bar, perhaps road drops, perhaps a flat bar.
shifters, levers - depends on bar choice.
bottle cages: 6 of the things (!)
racks: tubus or surly
panniers: ortlieb

Vs. a lht it seems much more solidly built and suitable for geniune trans continental riding. As good as you could get (it seems) without getting a custom built bike. In comparison, a LHT seems somewhat like a day-tourer, even though I know they are not.

Discuss, critique and spew venom for the purpose of my learning, please.

Cheers,
Craig

DwarvenChef

Durring some of my talks at the LBS disc brakes have popped up for me as well. While this is new tech for me I have had a hard time getting them out of my head, at least the manual disc breaks, don't want to bother with hydralics on tour. But if I went with disc breaks I may as well build a "new" bike so I wouldn't have to toarch a old frame kicking the costs right back up to the new frame costs...

SBRDude

Sounds like you have quite a bit of experience with disc brakes, including how to maintain them. That should go a long way in your decision. If it were me, I'd use them in a heartbeat.

Curious about the frame choices - why did the LBS recommend Salsa and Kona over Surly?

I don't understand your the sentence toward the end, just about "Discus...." I think you're making a comparison, but I can't tell what you mean.

ploeg

Regarding rim destruction, you're going to wear the rims that you have in any case. You might not have the sidewalls wearing, but you will still have quite a bit of extra weight on your wheels, and you will be going over less-than-optimal roads, which will eventually cause the rim to fail.

That being said, I have a couple of friends who just got off a round-the-world tour, and they liked their disc brakes.

pasopia

You should also look at the Salsa Vaya if you are going that route. I test road one a few months back and I really liked it. The fargo is more off road oriented, and would be slower on the road, at least according to comparisons I've read.

As far as discs for touring, I don't see any big problems. It will be harder to find replacement parts in the styx of foreign countries, if not impossible. I'd carry and extra rotor and lots of pads. Also make sure you get a bike with chainstay mounted calipers, it avoids the rack interference issue. I know the vaya has chainstay mounts, not sure about the fargo.

pacificaslim

Before you buy a Salsa Fargo, you'd best see if they've resolved the issues some have had with crazy death wobbles and unrideability with front panniers.

discussion here:
https://www.adventurecycling.org/foru...p?topic=6948.0

Reports that even Salsa staff say it is unstable with loads: https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/forum...read_id=131455

NoReg

I think discs make sense. They solve two problems that do exist with brakes: Getting anything powerful enough to stop a touring bike in all weather, and compatible with road levers. The set-up to get a rim brake to work can be a pain. A lot of people don't know how to tune cantis, Vs are a compromise with road levers, and there can be a maze of getting either to function on specific frames. The solution being to copy the geometry of the OEM brake set-up, usually.

The second problem is the lever compatibility problem mentioned above, no such problems with BB7 and road levers.



The downsides are:

- probably a bad idea to let the brake decision be the tail wagging the dog on the frame decision. So conondale, and some others have it as an option, to their touring frame, if one had independently decided on those, it would make sense. Even worse would be to let it wag the handlebar issue.

- Fragile in trans. Some people have talked about them getting broken in transit.

- Most tourists recommend against getting anything other than the cable actuated Avids, so one product choice and a nightmare if anything goes wrong. In any case, you want road bars you can't really have hydraulic.

- Won't solve the rim breaking problem and they put more load on your spokes. But the load is OK, and at least discs keep working if you taco the rim.

- Expensive, nothing wrong with that. I bought a BB7 onsale at the same time I bought Paul cantis. Price difference was about 20%. There is often an upcharge to getting the frame. So when discussing Disc vs. cantis or Vs, one can either find the discs far too expensive, or if one is cool with that, then one should consider also the very best cantis and Vs costing hundreds. So it becomes a BB7 vs Pauls cantis argument, etc....

-Discs are clunky heavy, and get in the way of stuff like racks and fenders, though that is all workable. The problem isn't can these things be done, but will one successfully navigate it, one needs to get a pattern to follow from someone who has already done what you want to do.

- Discs accelerate frame wear, and force one to ride uncomfortably stiff forks and stays. This is major. Remember, those parts are your ride in the absence of suspension. This could also get into the roadside repair argument. One thing to get some guy with a torch to weld your chainstay back together, another entirely if it has concentrated loads from a disc.

Overall it is thumbs down for me. I have been talking for years about doing a custom that would have cantis front and back, and a disc in the front. I actually believe for the elephant end of the spectrum (which you aren't) The model is more redundant braking on tandems. But again, this sport is average speed 10 miles per hour, no mud wallows. Huge premium to simplicity, and riding all day past potential spare parts. Again, it is the mind set thing of talking vs doing. Sure Discs might be the future of touring bikes, they are on every other vehicle, but reality is being out there, and dealing with what is, versus what might be. I would accept there will be a day when it's wet and your will wish you had more positive brakes. But then if you want positive get petersens front and back (or do research on all the various tandem super cantis etc...). That is part of the reason I went to Pauls, so that on those days when I wondered how smart it was to trust my life to a pair of 16 dollar Nashbar brakes (quite nice really), I could look down and see the best of the best execution wise, squeaking hapily away on the bike, knowing they weren't going to snap or something.

NeilGunton

If I was doing an Alaska-South America ride right now, and had the money, then I would get a Co-Motion Pangea with disk brakes:

https://www.co-motion.com/single_bikes/pangea.html

I have their Americano, with dual disks, and while I was on the fence for a while regarding the disk-vs-rim brake question, I've recently been coming to appreciate disks a bit more. Reason being, we have quite a big hill nearby where I live, going up to Kneeland. It's a steep, windy 5 mile hill. I've directly compared doing this hill with both my V-brake Rocky Mountain Sherpa, and my Avid BB7 Americano. On the way back down the hill on the Sherpa, the rims got really hot and I needed to stop very frequently. Maybe other people would do this hill faster than me, but it's so steep and with many tight bends, and rough road quality, that I don't feel comfortable letting myself go to build up too much speed - it would be very easy to lose control. So it's very heavy on the brakes. On the Americano I feel much more confident coming down that hill (it has 203mm rotors). The brakes do still heat up a lot, to the point in fact where the rotors are rubbing more than usual (I guess they expand with the heat?), but I don't have the same worries about potentially blowing out the tires, and there is the knowledge in the back of my mind that I'm not slowly grinding away the wheel rims.

I would use the Pangea rather than the Americano simply because 26" wheels would be more appropriate for a trip of that magnitude - easier to find replacement wheels, tubes and tires, and the 26" wheel is just intrinsically stronger than the 700C wheel, all other things being equal.

Neil

Commodus

I have discs on my Sutra, I like 'em. The mounting issues for racks and fenders aren't really issues. It took me maybe another...fifteen minutes to mount my fenders? Mind you, I have seen some people with some pretty awful mounting jobs. I think this has more to do with the owner's mechanical skills (or lack thereof), than the discs. The new bikes with the inside-mounted calipers are better still. Of course, I bought the Tubus Disco rear rack, so that made life easier.

Frame-wear is not an issue, don't be silly. The forks and whatnot have to be stiffer, of course, but we're talking about adventure touring, which means 32s for tires, minimum. I defy anyone to tell the difference between a canti-bike and a disc bike, both running 32s, based on 'frame flex' alone.

C Dunlop

Thanks for your help!

To be certain, I would have a preference for the Fargo over the LHT. It seems better built, better for my purposes and generally just a better deal.

Discs are better in the rain, cable discs are very powerful (I would even say bordering on overkill for a road bike)

Certainly, it won't entirely mitigate wheel destruction, but I feel it will go atleast some way to doing so. If I taco a wheel, I taco a wheel and I am resigned to the "sit in a hotel, wait for mail order" approach. There will be less rim wear, and my weight (even loaded) will be less than the body weight of many riders out there, so 36h, sturdily built MTB oriented wheels should last atleast this tour, IMO.

Frame wear is only really an issue on early 90s alloy mtb's which had disc mounts, but didn't have the tubing spec to handle disc brakes. Should be fine. By all accounts the fargo is, like most surly and salsa stuff, bordering on being overbuilt in the extreme.

The co-motion would be an incredible bike, but in reality I would be looking at $7k Australian Dollars to get set up on one. The fargo would be under $2.5k.

If you're having troubles with the discs "rubbing" the rotors are prolly just dirty, or the pads fouled, or the disc warped. Hydro's self adjust (as the pads wear, a little air moves behind the pistons, pushing them further towards the disc) which bb7s require manual adjustment via the "big red knob" on the caliper body.

I understand that moving away from 26in wheels is a compromise, of sorts. However, I feel riding 26in wheels is more of a compromise. I therefore feel that a 29in (700c) disc bike mitigates the disadvantages of a 700c rim braked bike, while having some other advantages as a bonus (better brakes, especially in the wet).

NoReg

I don't think frame wear is a big issue, it is just a discussable issue. If you are planing on taking a mountainbike, I asume it is a non-issue. The touring segment is different. I have a stock touring fork with disc mount on it, and it is enormously heavy, it is a zero ride quality fork. Putting them on road weight stuff and you do have unaccounted for loads. I have seen where people suffered damage. A lot of touring and cyclo cross stuff is the same stuff, which might have something to do with it.

Bacciagalupe

OK, at the risk of stating the obvious....

Not a lot of people have attempted, let alone completed, 15,000+ mile tours, mostly through 3rd world nations. I doubt the dude at your LBS is one of that elite few.

IMO you should spend a bit of time doing some research on people who have done rides like what you're planning, and check out their equipment.

On a side note, I don't know how long disc brakes tend to survive, but I'd be a tad surprised if you can do 15k miles on a set without lots of maintenance, possibly even a complete overhaul. This kind of maintenance is going to be much easier with cantis than discs.

By the way, why is 26" an "unacceptable" compromise? I doubt you'd even notice the difference between 26" and 700c once the bike is loaded.

NoReg

+1

"I doubt you'd even notice the difference between 26" and 700c once the bike is loaded. "

Particularly if the 700c you are used to is normally clad in racing skins, while the 26 will be 1" larger with touring tires on, which could none the less be slicks.

C Dunlop

This isn't really a typical LBS. One of the guys has ridden Byron Bay to Shark Bay (Australia, East to West), another has done a full loop. They sponsor most of the single speed place getters from the Australian 24hr solo championships. Half of the employees have done the kiwi brevet, 3 of them were among the few finishers of the Audax Australia Sydney-Melbourne ride.

But anyway.

I think a 56-58cm road bike with 26in wheels is a frankenbike. With modern rims and spokes, I see no reason not to ride a smoother, faster, more stable wheeled bike. Tubes aren't an issue, as 26in tubes stretch onto a 29in rim.

Discs require less maintainence than rim brakes, which I can do with a multi tool and a set of pliers. They have less moving parts, also. The only real "moving" part is a return spring, which can be replaced with pliers, and a new one comes with a set of pads. Pads last longer than a set of rim brake pads, especially in the wet. Same for rims. A spray of wd-40 clears with pad changes clears out the pistons.

I simply have a preference for a bigger wheeled bike. There are people riding downhill on 29in bikes now. The roads for half of this trip (atleast) will be ashphalt. Bigger wheel = bigger gear, smoother ride, better handling. Riding a bike that handles well for 9 months is preferable, to me, than a slightly extended stay in bolivia (or wherever) waiting for mail order parts to appear. Mail order places ship to within a hitch hike or bus ride of everywhere in South America.

To put it most simply, a bigger wheeled bike puts your centre of gravity lower relative to the hubs, but higher relative to the ground. Therefore, you are more stable and have more ground clearance.

sstorkel

What would a "complete" overhaul consist of for a set of Avid BB7s? Swapping pads and rotors? Installing a new brake cable? That's about all you can do to them and none of it is at all difficult... Not like, say, installing a new set of pads on canti brakes and then trying to get them adjusted so that they don't squeal but still provide stopping power

C Dunlop

If you can't fix it with WD-40 and packing tape, you're not using enough.

AsanaCycles

just pick a 29er
and your choice of racks
or none at all
Carousel Design Works frame bags... www.CarouselDesignWorks.com

your tour is going to somewhat depend on how much money you want to spend while enroute
the less you carry pretty much means the more you are going to source from your immediate environ... food/shelter

www.AsanaCycles.com

AsanaCycles

honestly... your right on
I've been using Avid Mechs for over 10 years now.
I have them on 3 out of 4 of my bikes, the 4th bike is a road bike with Zipps

replace a rotor? probably will not have to .
replace cables? probably not
it comes down to pads.

typically I go thru 3 sets of pads per year on my Big Dummy
2 to 3 sets on my Hunter 29er per year

i ride 20 to 40hrs/weeks

AsanaCycles

just use a 29er Tubeless set up with some latex sealant

https://www.asanacycles.com/Asana_Cyc...al_Forest.html

AsanaCycles

you want H-bars

I've been toying with the idea of using a set of Sefras Drifters in the 29er size and run them tubeless with some latex sealant, and Stan's rim strips
I've been using Drifters off an on for about 2 years now, and they are really tough tires! roll plenty fast on the pavement, and altho not a dirt tire, I've used them for just that, with not too much of a complaint.

the other option that I'm very fond of are WTB NanoRaptors or Vulpines.
depends on what surface you are going to be riding on.

C Dunlop

Hey. I think i've seen your bike on MTBR or something. The tour divide looks awesome.

I've done a lot of lightweight backpacking, and i'll pretty much carry the same gear + tools. Prolly run marathon plus 1.5s as a road tyre, so no real need to go tubeless.

Part of the desire to get a fargo is motivated by doing some firetrail detours in the US, as well as the fact that, apparantly, there are some pretty decent trail building projects going on in Patagonia. It'd be nice to have the option to unbolt the panniers and get dirty for a bit.

AsanaCycles

you probably have seen my posts on MTBR.com
my user name there is SelfPropelledDevo

you are onto something there with the notions you have to touring.

my only personal issue with The Fargo, is that its a bit too much of a touring bike for me.
I'd opt for a 29er, and try some Old Man Mountain racks. www.OldManMountain.com

C Dunlop

Those racks are sweet.

Thanks. That does open up the field... I feel a(nother) karate monkey also getting a look in now.

gah. headaches. how'd you find the tour divide?

truman

I tour on a Vaya, and rode the most of the Colorado part of the Divide trail this year. I'm sold on disks for touring, commuting and general riding. Regarding 700c - I had a problem finding a 700c tire in Texas, New Mexico and Colorado, last tour.

Of 26 and 27" tires, there were plenty, but I had to ride 130 miles to find any 700 rubber.

C Dunlop

Thanks for the help guys. I got a fargo frame yesterday. I'll end up doing something like this to it

titec j-bars
concor light
xt running gear except:
middleburn hardcoat slickshift rings (last ages)
campy record 9v chains (best chain ever made)
deore cranks (have a spare set, stiff enough)
thomson post (have a spare 27.2, unbreakable)
slx/comp/mavic a719 36h wheels, brass prolock nipples
cane creek s3 headset
marathon plus tyres
bb7s

tubus or surly racks
ortlieb panniers

Cheers,
Craig