Pedals
09-24-10 | 06:24 PM
#54
just another gosling
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 20,554
Likes: 2,666
From: Everett, WA
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Just like butts, everyone's knees are different. Some have to have the knee held by a zero-float pedal, other folks have to ride Speedplays. I like SPDs that have about 7° float. I find the limits of the float keep my knees from going where they shouldn't. But that's just me - and maybe Kevin. The support provided by a rigid shoe clipped to a solid base might help, too.
09-25-10 | 07:46 AM
#55
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
From: Iowa, USA
Bikes: Surly LHT (weekend ride & touring), GT Outpost (commuting), Brompton M6R (Weekend tours that involve flying), Co-Motion Periscope Torpedo (family weekend ride & touring)
Looking for simple platform pedals I came across the Pedalite pedals that have build in LED lights, a generator and capacitor that keeps the LEDs flashing for a few minutes after stopping. Pretty neat idea. But the pedal don't seem to have a good grip. A french review states that they found them slippery in rain. For $50 one would expect a better designed pedal. I still like the idea of an no maintenance always on blinking pedal light and could be good for touring as long as you don't want to do anything stealth.
09-25-10 | 10:14 AM
#56
Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
I find clipless is easier on my knees also(especially the more sensitive one), cos i spread or alternate power that goes on pedals, with platforms it's narrower range to apply power (mostly downstroke).you are little more relaxed/don't waste tiny energy in keeping your feet on pedals so it helps with endurance. for efficient pedaling clipless is the way to go, but since im new to clipless (one month) i still find loose gravel on steep descends and ascends, safer on platforms..
09-25-10 | 10:51 AM
#57
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Yeah, I'm not sure why, but going clipless has been a godsend for my knees. Better pedal stroke, probably? (rounder). Also, I feel that I'm using a different set of muscles than before. I feel soreness (the good kind) in muscles in my upper legs I hadn't noticed before. I am not sure what any of it means, but the decreased knee discomfort has been the biggest plus in going clipless. All the efficiency, speed, power gains (if they exist) have been gravy...
09-30-10 | 03:22 PM
#58
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 800
Likes: 4
From: Portland, OR
Just a reply
I use rainbow flip flops and flat pedals. Dont let anybody convince you that you need anything else to be comfortable, efficient and have fun.
I think alot of people like clips because they are not used to flats. There IS a learning curve to using flats IMO, just as there is with clips. If somebody jumps right onto flats from clips sure it feels weird, give it time and it all smooths out.
As cliche as it is, this really makes alot of sense and parallels my thoughts to a T:
https://www.rivbike.com/article/clothing/the_shoes_ruse
I think alot of people like clips because they are not used to flats. There IS a learning curve to using flats IMO, just as there is with clips. If somebody jumps right onto flats from clips sure it feels weird, give it time and it all smooths out.
As cliche as it is, this really makes alot of sense and parallels my thoughts to a T:
https://www.rivbike.com/article/clothing/the_shoes_ruse
09-30-10 | 03:48 PM
#59
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 800
Likes: 4
From: Portland, OR
I don't have to guess what my legs are doing for three reasons - one, I do a lot of one-legged pedalling on my rollers and know exactly what it feels like to keep a steady rim rpm; two, when pedalling with both legs I can feel the muscles contract, driving the pedals; and three, as I said, I can pedal with hams alone so I know I'm not powering on the downstroke.
The funny thing about your second graph is that the black, "average" line is obviously software generated and does average the power output, but over a much longer term than the individual pedal meters. Looking at the graph, one can see that both pedals drop to zero power at the same time, yet the black line doesn't move. It should also drop to zero power if it's showing what you think it's showing. There is simply no other way to interpret the second graph.
My pedalling looks exactly like the second graph when I stand, but when I sit it looks like the graph I created for my post. I'm definitely not alone in my pedalling style! I ride with many people who can pedal circles. It's easy to tell: the upper body never moves on a rider who is putting a constant torque on the bottom bracket. Riders who bob or move from side to side under heavy effort are applying torque as shown by your graph. Something to do with Newton's laws of motion, I believe. I can climb at cadences down to about 45 without moving my upper body. Below that, I have to start pushing down hard and do bob.
The first graph is a clear demonstration of what I'm saying! Look at that cadence bounce with the change of pedal angle! When I pedal rollers, i.e. almost no averaging from momentum, the rollers make a constant noise. My cadence does not vary with pedal angle, which is what I'm talking about. So when riding in the saddle, no momentary accelerations.
Your "scientific" graphs, while undoubtedly accurate, are based on the pedaling of an unknown person, of unknown ability. We don't even know if they were sitting or standing! It's also unknown how much better the subject might be if they pedaled properly. The wattage they are producing is that of a fairly strong pro at LT. If they are not a such a pro, then they are producing wattage far exceeding their normal output, and it would be normal for their pedaling style to deteriorate. Mine probably would too, though I'm fairly good at 200 watts.
The funny thing about your second graph is that the black, "average" line is obviously software generated and does average the power output, but over a much longer term than the individual pedal meters. Looking at the graph, one can see that both pedals drop to zero power at the same time, yet the black line doesn't move. It should also drop to zero power if it's showing what you think it's showing. There is simply no other way to interpret the second graph.
My pedalling looks exactly like the second graph when I stand, but when I sit it looks like the graph I created for my post. I'm definitely not alone in my pedalling style! I ride with many people who can pedal circles. It's easy to tell: the upper body never moves on a rider who is putting a constant torque on the bottom bracket. Riders who bob or move from side to side under heavy effort are applying torque as shown by your graph. Something to do with Newton's laws of motion, I believe. I can climb at cadences down to about 45 without moving my upper body. Below that, I have to start pushing down hard and do bob.
The first graph is a clear demonstration of what I'm saying! Look at that cadence bounce with the change of pedal angle! When I pedal rollers, i.e. almost no averaging from momentum, the rollers make a constant noise. My cadence does not vary with pedal angle, which is what I'm talking about. So when riding in the saddle, no momentary accelerations.
Your "scientific" graphs, while undoubtedly accurate, are based on the pedaling of an unknown person, of unknown ability. We don't even know if they were sitting or standing! It's also unknown how much better the subject might be if they pedaled properly. The wattage they are producing is that of a fairly strong pro at LT. If they are not a such a pro, then they are producing wattage far exceeding their normal output, and it would be normal for their pedaling style to deteriorate. Mine probably would too, though I'm fairly good at 200 watts.
If your rear wheel is coming off the ground you have very poor technique. I have heard that the main issue is not pulling up but rather you pushing down through the bottom of the stroke raising your hips and unweighting the wheel on the upstroke, but I am no expert. There have been a few posts in the past on this issue.
Last edited by nickw; 09-30-10 at 03:49 PM. Reason: Grammar
09-30-10 | 09:25 PM
#60
Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
From: New Jersey
Bikes: Bob Jackson, Daccordi, Trek 2300
Not for nothing but Rivendell is a business just like any other. If you read the article it says you don't need specialized clothing then their site has four pages of clothing. So its marketing, you believe theirs or some other guys. So in a nut shell they tell you why their stuff is worth buying.
09-30-10 | 10:29 PM
#61
just another gosling
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 20,554
Likes: 2,666
From: Everett, WA
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
I highly doubt your using your hams as much as you think. My experience with doing one legged drills is that it targets your upper hip flexors just as much if not more than your hamstrings. I find my hamstring being used much more at the bottom of the pedal stroke or the 'mud scraping' phase (which makes sense if you think about the dynamics).
If your rear wheel is coming off the ground you have very poor technique. I have heard that the main issue is not pulling up but rather you pushing down through the bottom of the stroke raising your hips and unweighting the wheel on the upstroke, but I am no expert. There have been a few posts in the past on this issue.
If your rear wheel is coming off the ground you have very poor technique. I have heard that the main issue is not pulling up but rather you pushing down through the bottom of the stroke raising your hips and unweighting the wheel on the upstroke, but I am no expert. There have been a few posts in the past on this issue.
Yes, it is poor technique to bring the rear wheel off the ground. It's a matter of eliminating or correctly timing the body's up and down motion. It's tempting to want to raise the body up so as to come down with maximum force on the downstroke (bobbing). However if one is also pulling up hard on the backstroke it's easy to bring the rear wheel up, if not the whole bike. OTOH, one doesn't want to not pull up because that robs power. So it's a matter of controlling body motion.
It's sort of like following through in other sports. The backstroke foot is still pulling up hard when the pedal reaches TDC. If the body is also coming up, the bike comes up, too. Because the leg is extended when standing, the muscular geometry is different and the hamstring can exert a lot more force than when seated. I was just using that as a way to show that riders do in fact pull up on the backstroke, and pull quite hard. It sure isn't the downstroke foot that's lifting the bike.
Stoker and I went up one of our local short, steep hills this evening, out of the saddle at maximum force. We were pulling up very hard (as well as pushing down!), but trying to be as smooth as possible. We were just barely maintaining traction on the dry asphalt even so. Tandems are a lot of fun.
10-01-10 | 12:52 AM
#62
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 800
Likes: 4
From: Portland, OR
Reply
Not for nothing but Rivendell is a business just like any other. If you read the article it says you don't need specialized clothing then their site has four pages of clothing. So its marketing, you believe theirs or some other guys. So in a nut shell they tell you why their stuff is worth buying.
Of course I realize it's a business, but it's a business I can relate to, understand and agree with. Alot of people appreciate well made simple products, they are one of the few shops that promote this mindset.
Not to mention, you have to give credit where credit is due, they are selling you products that will last years if not a lifetime. Compare that with alot of the disposable crap you can buy in the bike world these days.
Last edited by nickw; 10-01-10 at 01:02 AM.
