cyccommute 

Classic myth. Touring bikes aren't all that 'unresponsive'. I have ridden many, many miles on a touring bike that weren't loaded touring miles. For the better part of 15 years, a touring bike was my only road bike. I still managed to do 5 hour flat centuries on it and 7 hour mountainous centuries. I didn't race it but I don't race.

There are other issues with 'responsive' bikes used for touring. Under load that responsiveness can translate into skittishness. The short chainstays can cause problems with clearance. The lighter frames are more prone to death wobbles especially while carrying a load.

Given that he has tried touring and seems to like, and continue, doing it and that he has the choice between a touring bike and a bike that can be adapted - with some difficultly - to serve as a poor(er) touring bike, why not choose the bike for the job and one that can be used for lots of other jobs as well?

seat_boy

djb, the Fargo is actually a double (38/26), and let me tell you, I really needed that 26 when pulling my train up from the river bottoms.

For the Tricross, I already had a 120mm x 25* stem on there, which is about how long I want to use on a road bike.

nbh

I didn't photograph the derailleur because they hadn't finished installing it yet. I'm not worried about the granny gear not being small enough: on my current bike, I almost never use the smallest chainring. The main thing I worry about is the size. I'm planning to ride my current bike to the shop tomorrow so I can compare it with the Tricross. If 58cm turns out to be too small, I guess I'll have to buy a bike in the States in December. I really want a new bike now, but it needs to be the right bike, you know? It sucks that I have only one option here in Taiwan.

nbh

You make a convincing argument. I get the feeling that I'm trying to convince myself the Tricross is the right bike because it's the only bike I can buy now. But I'd probably be better off going home to the States and buying from a bike shop that specializes in tourers and is used to American body sizes. I'd have more options, I'd get a better fit, and I'd probably be better off over the long term. A five-hour century is fast enough for me.

LeeG

let me know if you find a shop specializing in touring bikes. Anywho it sounds like you've got the bug to get a bike and are letting pictures and numbers guide your choosing instead of test rides. There's lots more bikes out there.

staehpj1

Different strokes. Personally, I think most of them ride like trucks. I also think that they tend to be overkill for those of us who ride with lighter loads. The LHT in particular felt like a tank when I test rode one of them. It all depends on what you want, expect, and are used to.

I never ride my touring bike when not on tour for that reason. I have been considering refitting my older Cannondale road bike as a light tourer now that I am carrying much less than I used to. I expect that after touring (camping and cooking) with 22 pounds or so I will probably never tour with over 30 pounds again regardless of conditions. I now use only front panniers with the tent on the back rack which minimizes the need for long chain stays.

Full disclosure: I actually had a bit more than 22 pounds (24 maybe?) because I wound up not sending the expandable duffel home as I had planned. It did save me from digging up another to get my stuff home.

LeeG

The 700c LHT rides like a big bus, the 26" wheeled LHT rides like a nimble tank.

Gus Riley

Mine (26" wheels) handles like a nimble dump truck! ") It definitely rides better loaded than empty...hmmm just like a dump truck! I don't ride it empty too often; I have an expensive road bike for that purpose.

nbh

When you say it was too small, do you mean the seat tube was too short, the top tube was too short, or something else?

djb

I think that is a very wise way to look at it, being able to actually ride a bunch of different bikes would be great (as I suggested), especially as you say you will have more options, and you can really see how different bikes feel to ride and compare them back to back.

and yes, it must be a drag with so few options and you wanting to get a bike now. But yes, whatever bike you end up getting, it fitting you is the most important thing.

djb

My touring bike was my only bike as well for almost the same time, and as for 5 hour centuries (I assume you mean a mile one, or 160km) well, I would argue that its the engine thats the big factor there. My Kuwahara was alright as a road bike too, but I can in no way claim to be able to do 160k in 5 hours on any bike.

As Staeh puts it, there are different opinions of how some touring bikes ride. I agree with him, especially as I have said, how someone owning one bike might only tour on it for a small small percentage of its riding lifetime.

As for getting into quantifying "responsiveness", this starts to get tricky with online opinions. I can say that my Tricross has the same wheelbase, the same chainstay length as my tourer, so absolutely no issues for heel strike and while it steers a bit quicker, it is not at all skittish at any speed, and I have ridden it with 25lbs on it. As a more sedately geometry bike, this is why they came out with the Crux or whatever it is with shorter chainstays and such to have quicker steering, while keeping the Tricross models the same.

"The lighter frames are more prone to death wobbles especially while carrying a load"--a racing bike maybe, but there are lots of light tourers out there that dont do this, and I have had some weird wobbles on my touring bike due to funny weight distribution on one trip that went away after moving stuff around. And again, my experience with the Tricross is that it has been very stable and has never exhibited any funniness that made me wonder about it. But yes, of course, a LHT or similiar will be more stable with a crapload of stuff on it.

As I said, it would be great for the fellow to ride a whole bunch of bikes, and see how they feel. Try barends, try brifters, It will be up to him to see what feels good for him and to prioritize if a full on tourer is good, or something different. As others have stated, there are lots of bikes out there, so we should give him a list of ones to look into and hopefully try out.

Surly LHT
Kona Sutra
Trek 520
plus a bunch Im not thinking of or dont know of.

fietsbob

get an un cut steerer tube on the fork..

These both ship out of Taipei Ports why would they be hard to get in the country they are made?
or are they all for Export, and then you have to re import them..

nbh

Oh man, you have no idea how much this irritates me as an expat. The domestic bike market in Taiwan is very different from the export market. And it's not just bikes--last month I bought an Exped Downmat 9 from REI and had my parents ship it to me. It was made in Taiwan, but I couldn't find a single one for sale here.

nbh

Well, I rode the Tricross today, it felt good, and the salesperson knocked 20% off the price, so I decided to just buy it. It's not perfect, but the fit seems fine--I figure a bigger frame would only lengthen the top tube, which I find long enough already. (Plus, according to the Specialized sizing chart, XL is the right size for me.)

If in the future I decide to do some heavily-loaded touring, I'll look into getting a Long Haul Trucker or similar bike. But I don't think it makes sense for me to wait, bikeless, till December to buy a tourer in the States and haul it back here when I'm probably going to be moving somewhere else (probably back to America) next year. Over the next nine months I'm not going to be doing anything more than day rides and light touring, which the Tricross should handle just fine. It's an awfully nice bike for the $850 I paid for it. I can't wait to ride it more!

One thing I did notice on the way home (specifically, while pedaling up the steep hill to my apartment): the granny gear is indeed significantly higher than my old granny gear. I may look into changing the rear cassette.

cyccommute 

If your Tricross has the same chainstay length as your 'touring bike', then your touring bike isn't one. You may not have a problem with heel strike but many people would. I have a Salsa Las Cruces (similar geometry to the Tricross) that I use for commuting and I had a short chainstay (poor) 'touring' bike long ago that I used for touring. Even with small panniers and not overly large feet (size 10, US) I have heel strike problems. If I used the larger rear panniers that I have, I'd be hitting them on every revolution. Yes, you can solve that problem by mounting the bags further back and/or moving the rack further rearward but cantilevering the load off the back of the bike only worsens the handling issues especially at higher speeds.

For most a 25 lbs of load isn't much load. Most people aren't going to want to travel with that level of Spartanship for very long. I could get away with that for an overnighter...if I could find a grocery store before camping which isn't always possible depending on the area I travel in...but anything longer and my load grows to about twice that.

Death wobbles are funny things. Some (most) bikes will never develop them. Even if you have the same model and perhaps the same size bike as the next person, your bike might or might not develop death wobbles. It's usually speed dependent but using a light frame like a cyclocross bike for touring will certainly exacerbate the problem if the bike is prone to them. Heavier touring frames can still develop them (my daughters touring bike starts the wobble at about 30 mph with a load) but they are less prone to it.

All in all, if you want to tour, it's best to start with a bike that is designed to do the job rather than adapt a bike that isn't. A touring bike can be used for touring or for everyday riding. A cross or road bike can be used for everyday riding but it may not be suitable for touring.

djb

all true, all true cycc. I only have size 9 feet so Im sure that helps a lot, especially comparing to someone who is 6'2" or more and might have shoe size 11,12 or more.
My old Kuwahara has chainstays of 44cm, as does the Tricross, and I think the wheelbase of each is 104cm but I dont remember teh exact number, just that they are the same. On the old bike I used a couple of sets of panniers, including my Ortliebs I still use today, but as you say, probably having size 9 shoes helped things.
As for the numbers of chainstays and wheelbase, I guess it was certainly not a long bike, but I dont think it was a particularly short one, you might know more on that off the top of your head.

re wobbles--you said it how inconsistent it can be at times. When I did the Oregon Cali trip, that was when I had a wobble for the first time with that bike, and it hadnt done that before. With messing around with distribution, it eventually went away and I do remember calmly hitting 80k on a fun downhill with a tailwind and it was all steady as usual.

The 25lb number I threw out was just two panniers full of stuff in town so while I cant vouch for using the bike with a usual 40lbs or so, I do know some people have toured fully loaded on Tricrosses and things were fine---but again, I readily admit that a real touring bike would be more suited to fully loaded for being more stable and at ease with the weight (not to mention lower gearing, especially with a much better crank like a 46/36/24, or even a mtn crank of 42/32/22--the mtn one I especially think is a great tourer crank)

djb

NBH, enjoy riding it.
For the gearing, ask about changing the 30 tooth granny to a smaller one like a 26--there was an Australian fellow on Bike Forums who had his bike shop put a 24 tooth on his Tricross, and was very happy with the lower gearing (its a cheaper change to lower gearing than getting a new cassette)

If you have the inclination, try taking a look at the gear calculator I put up, so you can actually see what your mtn bike has for "gear inches" in each gear, and what you could do for a given price to lower the Tricross gearing. You had said you hardly ever use the granny on the mtn bike (I assume a 22 tooth) so you can figure out what you really need to get the gearing down to with the new bike. It is also neat to begin to understand what combo of front chainrings and rear teeth give in "gear inches" , its great to be able to quantify what gearing your bike has exactly.

cheers and I hope you are indeed happy with the new bike. Safe and happy riding.

nbh

Hey, sorry it's taken me a while to figure this out. My old mountain bike has a 44-32-22 triple in front and a nine-speed cassette in back ranging from 34 to 11 teeth. My new Tricross has a Shimano FC-2303 52-42-30 triple in front and an eight-speed Shimano RD-2300 in back ranging from 26 to 12 teeth. So the Tricross is much harder to climb with; I don't think I could climb the hill up to my apartment if I were loaded up with gear. According to the rear derailleur specs, it can handle up to 35 teeth. Should I look into changing the cassette, or would it be easier to get different chainwheels in the front?

Gus Riley

If it were mine and I was going to self contain tour with it, I'd change both. Change the Cassette to right around an 11-32 or 34, and up front change the rings to accommodate at least a 26 or even a 24 small ring.

mtnbud

(edit: I checked the specs on the 2011 Tricross Sport. - It's supposed to come with a Deore LX RD and a low gear of 30 front - 32 back. The RD should handle the gear inches if you decide to change the gearing, but I've toured with a 30-32 and found it acceptable. A little lower would be nice. Then again, most highways in Oregon keep the gradient fairly low)

A lot of the "long cage" road RD are actually mid-cage. You might need to change to a mountain RD. The bike I use for touring had a Shimano 105 "long cage" RD - I changed it to a spare Deore XT RD I had in my parts drawer. You'd have to calculate the max and min gear inches for your set-up and look up what your RD can handle.

If you didn't want to do that, you could probably change your front chain rings so your big ring and little ring were smaller and get by with a mid-cage RD. (Maybe something like 46/36/26 if your crank can fit a 26 tooth chain ring) You'd have to calculate the max and min gear inches for the set-up and look up how many gear inches your RD can handle.

I know a few people who are touring on older Tricrosses and have no issues. I do agree the bike needs a lower gear for loaded climbing.

djb

nbh, what you might find out is that when you ask at stores for diff sized crankset rings, the cost per ring and 3 of them will most likely be expensive-ish.
To be completely honest, seeing that this is a Tricross with the diff gearing than the Sport (again, see my gear chart I included in an earlier post) if you were to put gear on this bike, as you say it will be hard to get up hills.
A friends wife last summer bought a bike with similar gearing to yours (50/39/30 and 12-25) and she realized it wasnt geared low enough after buying it.

Get some quotes from stores, but you are in the same boat as her, to put a wider range cassette, you will most likely have to also change the rear derailleur to a long cage one.

the other option is to have a whole new crank put on, with much smaller teeth on all three chainrings (such as a 44/32/22) which would work well for putting weight on the bike and on hills.
There are some mtn bike cranks at reasonable prices, and the shop would have to lower the front derailleur on the frame a bit, and adjust the cable length, but is easy to do. A good bike store will know if a given crank will fit onto your bottom bracket axel properly.

This might be the cheapest route to go.

I guess all I can suggest is to ask around, and also punch in these numbers in a gear chart and compare them to your mtn bike to see how it compares to what you know.

As for crankset prices, early this summer I replaced a bunch of parts on my 8 speed mtn bike, and when looking into changing the 42 tooth ring, some new 42 tooth rings cost $50 or more, and I almost got a brand new Shimano Alvio mtnbike crankset 42/32/22 for $45 but it fit a slightly diff sized bottom bracket and axel length, so I ended up looking more and found a $25 new 42 tooth ring.

so ask around if a mtn bike crankset appeals to you, maybe a 44 or 42/32/22 combined with your 12-26 rear cassette and original RD could work.

Think of it this way, you are now learning all about bike gearing.........

ps, one advantage with 8 speed stuff is that everything is usually quite reasonably priced (I replaced the chain $15, a new 11-28 cassette SRAM $20)

Schwinnrider

"The recent advent of touring-specific bikes"? Recent like the 1970s? People may have toured on cross bikes but I don't think it was because touring bikes didn't exist. Heck, my first good bike was a Raleigh Wyoming touring bike, and that was 1984. Trek has offered the 520 forever, and Cannondale offered a touring bike from their beginning up to just recently.

To address the OP---you're comparing apples and oranges. You can tour on the Tricross, but the LHT is going to be a much more capable loaded tourer.

nbh

@djb: True, I suppose I've got to learn about bike gearing sooner or later. That's a nice way to look at it!

I think what I'll do is go back to the Specialized store and ask them about changing the rear cassette (and derailleur if necessary) to something with up to 34 teeth, then see how well I can climb with that. I don't want to change to mountain bike cranks because I like being able to go fast unloaded. I'm only going to be doing light touring for the foreseeable future, and if I do end up doing heavy touring in a year or two, I'd probably be better off getting a dedicated tourer for that and using the Tricross for what it was meant for: light, fast riding.

In the meantime, even if I'm still figuring out all these technical details, I'm enjoying riding the bike. I did 50 km today on the coldest day of the fall so far, and it felt pretty darn good.

FrenchFit 

Your instincts are correct, keep away from MTB parts. The real distinction/benefit of the tricross is it's fairly light and handles more like a road bike. If you hang a bunch of heavy stuff on it you'll end up with just another dead touring bike. I ride my tricross with a very light wheelset but 28mm tires, light bags, and avoid using a rear rack whenever possible; it's a blast. got serious weight? Put it on a 26" wheeled bike.

LesterOfPuppets

This is a bike with Shimano 2300, not a weight ween special. An SLX triple is lighter than a 2300 double,so probably lighter than the 2303 triple as well.

It should be pretty easy to swap out 2300 parts for midrange MTB parts and not take a weight hit.

Ooops, Sora now. Still Sora double 864g, SLX triple, 890. 25g ain't much