As usual, I ask myself a billion questions on anything. I'm just wondering for all those here who used a frameset for their build, like a Nashbar touring framset, a Surly, Soma or Salsa, how do you find the position you're in?

I have a hybrid bicycle with an 18 inch frame. And the top tube I measured at 53.5cm and seat tube at 46cm. Now, as you can imagine, I'm sitting really upright but it's the most comfortable bike I've ever had. I'm 5'8" 1/2 (174cm) and the distance between the back of the seatpost to the middle of the handlebar is 62.5cm. On my mountain bike, it's 66.5cm. I find the extra 4cm on the mountain bike puts more weight on my hands. But, that might be due to the handlebar height as well. It's a little lower and flatbars, not riser bars like my hybrid. Plus, my hybrid has comfort grips which makes another difference.

On my hybrid, I can litteraly turn my head around and look behind me because my back is that straight up. On my mountain bike, I'm leaning forward just enough that turning my head back is more uncomfortable.

Now, my dilemma is this. I haven't even tried doing 60 miles in a day yet. But, I'm wondering if a really upright position is a lost cause with those kinds of distances. I found the 54cm Salsa Vaya (recommended height 165 to 173cm) has an effective top tube of 540cm and seat tube of 490mm. However, it has no bosses for V-brakes (disc brake only) even though the 54cm model does have the advantage of the "speedier" and "easier to roll on grass" 700c wheels.

So, should I accept a more leaning forward bicycle as a more rational way of doing 60 miles in a day or should I give in and finally adopt disc brakes? Even the idea of taking more time to install wheels doesn't excite me very much. I don't even know how to adjust/maintain disc brakes.

The 54cm Surly Long Haul Trucker has an effective top tube of 555mm which might have me leaning more forward but has 26 inch wheels.

Although I found the Opus Adagio complete bike has a medium size with an effective top tube of 54.5cm and seat tube of 45cm. So I figured maybe I could just buy a Nashbar frame, put all the Alivio parts on there and sell it then put Deore LX parts on the Opus Adagio. But I'm not sure if the chainstays are long enough on the Adagio to tour with.

I don't know.

Just to add some more confusion, you forgot about seat tube angle. I find the seat tube angle to be very important for comfort. I say it is more important than top tube length, within reason. Take two bikes, your hybrid and a race bike set up exactly the same. The hybrid will have much less weight on your hands because of a more relaxed seat tube angle. This is one reason I will never own a LHT, because in my size, the seat tube angle is way too steep.

What I'm trying to say is that just because the top tube length is the same, does not mean that two bikes will have the same comfort level. There are many things that decide this, seat tube angle, top tube length, head tube length, handle bar height, etc. Also, how the bike is ridden will change how the geometry affects comfort, what is good for a race bike will not be good for a hybrid. You can get an aggressive riding position with little weight on your hands and you can have an upright position with lots of weight on your hands.

As for disk brakes, don't worry about taking the wheel off on putting it on. It really is no harder than any other braking system. Once you learn how to adjust disk brakes, you will find it very easy. This is especially true if you have good brakes, like the BB-7s. I think they are easier to adjust than any other type of brake. The only "hard" thing is truing the disk. But with some practice and a white piece of paper you will find this is easy also, easier than truing a wheel.

If you like the feel of the Vaya, get it and learn how to adjust the brakes. You'll like them.

from Sweet Lou "This is one reason I will never own a LHT, because in my size, the seat tube angle is way too steep."


Remember by moving the saddle rails to the very back of the seatpost or using a seatpost with a lot more setback, you can compensate for that steep seat tube angle in most cases.

Well, the Surly Long Haul Trucker, Soma Saga, Salsa Vaya and Nashbar touring frame all have about 73 or 73.5 degree angles for the 52 or 54cm models.

EDIT: Weird, I put 53 and 53.5 degree instead of 73 and 73.5.

Huh? Do you mean they have 53 or 53.5 cm top tubes? And here I always thought it was England and the US that were two countries separated by a common language.

seat tube angle

Sure about those angles?

Today I did 50 miles on a 90's mountain bike without getting out of the saddle. I've done 3 metrics and 2 imperial centuries this summer on the same bike as well. I've never ridden a touring bike but my reward for 2500 miles this year is going to be an LHT. Anyway my point is long distances on an upright bike are very possible.

Ha, I fixed it. I figure I was tired.

If you have a bike that fits you and you want to transfer the points of contact (POC) to another frame of possibly different proportions and angles, you need to ignore all angles and measure directly in [x,y] coordinates.
I use the bottom bracket as the origin [0,0].
I mark the top tube at x=0 then measure the saddle and bars from that point.
Dont forget to factor in crank size, if this is changing.
Once you have plotted your graph of POC, you can transfer them to a new bike, selecting suitable seatpost layback and stem rise/length.

If you are unsure of your bar position and want to experiment with a longer/lower position, consider an adjustable stem.
With a medium sized frame, you can use a stem from 8-12cm with no handling issues. They usually come with 10cm from the factory. I have seen people fit much shorter stems and they ride OK. Stem length should bear some proportion to TopTube length so XS frames should also feature shorter stems and XXL frames should use long stems.
Saddle fore-aft position relative to the bottom bracket can affect the weight distribution and handling, this is less critical with long wheelbase bikes but more critical in larger sizes, where the rider sits more over the rear wheel. Saddle rail length and seatpost layback can be selected to meet any position.

On a passing note, I hope if any of the frame manufacturers take a peek at this thread, please consider compact frames instead of standard only frames. I know the standover on a Trek 520 is tremendous (I mean lots of distance between your groin and the top tube, but I think compact frames (I mean sloping top tube) give you more flexibility to put your foot down if you have to (like a very steep incline on a dirt trail, etc.).

I've done up to 120 miles on my Trek 7000, which is about as upright as you can get. Yea, my butt was sore at the end, but I could feel all my fingers. I just haven't found a seat that works, but I've given up on that cause and I'm going to look into a tadpole recumbent next summer.