@dbg: Evidently you're doing different sorts of tours than I can imagine. I would never dare look down at GPS while riding. I'm even reluctant to glance at my bike computer to check the speed going downhill. Simply too dangerous for me. Also, there may be a single dozen turns per day for me, not multiple dozens. Some of those turns I can keep in my head, others are a good excuse to take a rest break and look at my paper maps. So even if a GPS was my only map, there would be no reason for me to keep it running all the time.

And true, I didn't take the Garmin devices outside into direct sun. But REI stores are quite well-lit and have sunlight coming in the windows. Regardless, even if the Garmin transflective displays really are that great in sunlight, my Nokia N8 and the iPhone are also perfectly usable in bright sun. The whole world is using smartphone outdoors.

Anyway, I asked the REI guy to show me the top-of-line GPS they had for sale that used batteries (rechargeable isn't an option for me on tours). It was Garmin, but don't know the model. Compared to a modern smartphone, I was appalled at how clumsy this device was to use. No pinch-and-zoom or panning via swiping. Rather, you had to push a + or - button to zoom and arrows to pan, or something like that. Resolution much worse than on my Nokia N8 or an iPhone, meaning not really that usable to get an overview of the area and trace my way along the road to get an idea of what lay ahead. Maps all had to be purchased separately, adding to the already high cost. For my type of cycling, the device was clearly a step down compared to the Nokia N8. For hiking purposes, such as the Pacific Crest Trail, it was also a big step down compared to a combination of high-quality paper topo maps and a Garmin Foretrex 301, since the maps on the mapping Garmin GPS I examined were so much inferior to my paper maps (which I won't go without when hiking the PCT) and weight was so much heavier than the Foretrex 301 non-mapping GPS.

Yea. The problem is that indoor lighting is really the worst case for these outdoor intended units. You really have to see them in the noon day sun. We've had lots of people show up with cool handlebar mounts for their iPhones and other smartphones only to abandon them on the first day.

My clear order of preference would be transreflective GPS units first, paper maps second, and smartphones last. Most of our folks still prefer paper maps and I have to admit I keep a copy of the day's maps in my bag just-in-case. Sorry, but I'm just passing on what the folks on our trips decide after trying out the options. I certainly do use smartphones outdoors (on foot in the big city, mostly). But in the noon day sun they all require you to shade them with your own shadow --not something you can easily do on a bike

And the other big assumption I make is that the Garmin devices are pre loaded with the somewhat expensive additional maps. The base maps are terrible and mostly useless.

Really? My iPhone 3G and 4 are terrible in direct sunlight. My Garmin Edge 705 seems much better in comparison...

+1. iPhone 4 = bad. Garmin eTrex = good.

+1 the Garmin eTrex interface is atrocious. But, once you learn to use it --> it works.

Actually, I don't have any experience with the iPhone in direct sunlight. But I do have experience with the Nokia N8 outdoors, in sunny environments like Reno, Death Valley, Nevada backcountry. Just now I took the N8 outside on my walk to the store here in Reno. Clear skies. 4PM so the sun wasn't overhead, but it was still very bright. When the phone is positioned with the sun directly at my back, all I get is the reflection of the sun off the glass of the phone into my eyes. If I then turn the phone ever so slightly, all I can see is fingerprints. But if I turn the phone like 30 degrees, it is perfectly readable. As readable as this laptop monitor I am typing on right now (indoors). The N8 outdoors would be much more readable that this monitor outdoors. So maybe the Nokia N8 is much superior to the iPhone outdoors. I assumed the iPhone was equal, since everyone says it is so much better. My own experience with the iPhone is limited to borrowing other people's (indoors) for short periods of time.

Now if you attach a phone to the handlebars, so the orientation is fixed, then I can see where it might give problems. (You'd also have the problem of rain and dust and other damage.) But if you store the phone in the handlebar bag and only take it out when needed, then all you have to do is turn the orientation by 30 degrees or so to make the display very bright, clear and readable.

Tks for all the various points brought up, as a recent android user, I've been trying to figure out the various ins and outs of using this thing as an infrequent "checker upper" of GPS position. Hopefully I'll figure out how to do this and see how it works.

I don't do turn by turn, but I do check my route sometimes on my iPad. Works fine. Yes, in the sun you sometimes have to find the right angle to read it, but it can be done. If I wanted constant navigation and turn by turn directions, then I'd want a more sunlight-friendly screen, but for the occassional route check, it's fine, and I imagine any smart phone would also be fine. On the other hand, if I was doing turn by turn, I think being able to hear the device and keep my eyes on the road might be better than being able to see, so a smart phone might still be fine. Except for battery issues. I don't know that any smart phone is capable of doing all-day navigation on battery power.

@djb: don't know if you came across these but maybe we should form a list: https://www.everytrail.com/android, https://theappwhisperer.com/2011/03/2...pad-or-iphone/, https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...icycle.android

Gary, very good idea. An android thread would be good, didn't someone start one a while back?
I've played with MyTracks on my commuting rides for the last month or so. It has hiccups at times, but is ok and fun to see elevation and gradient (grad I think is least accurate)
What I do want to accomplish is to be able check in and see where I am without wifi.

I was 100% satisfied using my iPhone 4 as my full time navigation device on my recent tour. I used the Biologic iPhone Mount and a new trent IMP99D battery. The phone survived the rain and lasted 10+ hours on the road while plugged into the battery. I will definitely use this set up again. The iPhone has to be set up, turning auto brightness off and setting brightness to 100%. I had an analog map just in case but never used it.

For what it’s worth. Here is my take on this and how it has changed over the last two years. Long post I guess I had happy fingers this morning.

I’m old school and old enough to remember the days before electronics and I’m never far from a paper map when I’m where I don’t know. I seem to know where north is without too much trouble but a $2 clip on compass isn’t a bad idea on my bar bag.

That being said I’m also an early adopter of the new technologies and I have had first an iPhone 3GS and now the i4. I started with the mapping apps that most use and migrated to apps like Cyclemeter, Track my Tour or Endomondo etc. I was fascinated with the route mapping and the feature rich things these did. I wanted my phone bar mounted and spent a lot of time and money securing it all within my vision. Then the battery life issue came up and I built my own DIY charger that used alkaline AA batteries easily found on tour and with a 5 year shelf life. In my day to day use of the phone I found the Mophie juice pack case a great addition as it doubles the battery life of the phone. The down side was it’s not a hardened case for bike usage so I would switch cases for the bike. The novelty of watching the display soon went away and also the practical aspect of not being distracted when riding a bike. IMHO all displays are hard to read in bright sun and I’m also challenged by needing reading glasses at that distance. The more I thought about it the less I wanted my phone soaking in sunlight all day and had no need to play with the screen without pulling over anyway. The black face of my iPhone really can get hot to the touch being left out and that can’t be good for the electronics. I ride with a small homemade bar bag that hangs on the inside of my bars and opens away from me and is waterproof. I made it from a camera bag. It’s the bag that all the things that come with me when I leave the bike are in. I plan on attaching the phone in the Mophie case inside the bag maybe to the lid, but somehow so it will be on the top so all I have to do is open the bag and view the phone right next to my reading glasses. I have been experimenting and the phone is much more easy to view when its shaded a bit with the lid. I no longer carry the DIY charger I made and I now use a Tekkeon backup charger that works differently than most of the backup deals.
https://www.tekkeon.com/productcart/p...&idproduct=194
It will take ether rechargeable AA or alkaline AA and can also be used as an AC charger for the NMH I carry when AC power is available. I would set out with My iPhone charged in the charged Mophie case 4 AA NMH in the Tekkeon unit and 4 AA alkaline batteries as ultimate backup. The Tekkeon outputs thru USB and I also carry a single led laptop light, the kind that’s about a foot long on a flex wire. I can set the Tekkeon as a base and have a nice little light source (hands free) in the tent or for cooking late that draws almost no power and has little weight.

As to the mapping GPS software on an iphone. Most all of them require connectivity to download maps as you go 3G is pretty fast internet is best and remote cell coverage can take a long time. The GPS knows where you are at longitude and latitude as a number but without a map it’s not much good. A work around is to view the maps ahead of time when you have connectivity and zoom into a level you might need and scan around the area. Doing this puts the map in a temp storage and it should stay a few days. I don’t trust this method and much prefer an app like MotionX – GPS I have had great luck with this app as it lets you select as much of the country as you wish at a level of detail as you wish and save it to your phones memory forever or until you want it deleted. Having the map stored and the phones GPS adding your location works really well.

All these apps do many other functions as well helpful on the road. As does the iPhone. I like to leave my phone running (personal preference) home, work, weather alerts, entertainment even sometimes. Without the display turned on unless needed and with the above method of managing the power problems I can stay connected 24-7. I always do rechargeable batteries at home on everything and on the road when I can. The alkaline are cheap easy to find do the trick in a pinch.

Just my way of doing things and I see nothing wrong with a dedicated unit if that’s what you find works best for you.

Thanks for posting the link. Lots of good info in there.

I usually memorize as much of the route as I can, be it single day or multi-day ride, and use an Android phone with the Locus Maps app and offline maps to double check at intersections that I'm not sure about. I've been using this set-up for the past year, and I can't see it changing any time soon. I have vector maps for on-road use, satellite maps for off-road and looking ahead for suitable camping sites, and terrain maps for a rough idea of the climbs ahead. It works so well that I rarely turn on the GPS receiver, so I can pinpoint my location the old fashioned way, by looking at the map and correlating it with my surroundings.

Current non-GPS-user here, but have decided to become one. We tour on a tandem. Our current system is to create cue sheets with bikely.com online mapping software, put them in Stoker's bar map case, from which she navigates using her Cateye cyclo computer. This works very well. The cue sheets take up very little space and weigh almost nothing, even for a longish tour. We do need to define our route ahead of time, but we enjoy that. We also carry simple maps, for when the cue sheets don't resolve a question.

However. Our next tour will be our first European tour, 3 weeks mostly in the Czech Republic. Bike routes in the old Communist countries follow obscure country byways which may or may not be well signed. City layouts are not simple, and we probably will want to deviate from our planned route. So I'm thinking GPS. I don't think smartphone because the phone part will be useless. There may not be coverage, and even if there were I understand the data cost is crazy. So if we're going to preload maps, including a track, it seems to me we should have a device intended for that use. So I'm thinking of cue sheets, some paper maps, and a Garmin eTrex 30 with City Navigator for that area. Our plan is to mostly leave it turned off and only use it if we are off route, getting through a city, or if there's some question. We won't be in a big hurry, so we'll have time to stop and stare at it for a while. We plan to camp 3 out of 4 nights, but of course that may or may not work out.

Comments? And thanks for the thread.

I've been waiting forever for this one myself, I mean really it's so practical to store them in such a small place.

Best I've been able to find so far, but hopefully when the color e-readers start coming out we will see better applications.


https://www.the-digital-reader.com/20...-great-beyond/

A phone like an iPhone or any smart phone can use any number of apps to make internet calls for free or small charges anyplace you find Wi-Fi. I have several apps on my phone and use them a good deal, most come up with your phones contact list and look and feel like you are making a Cell call. There are so many uses for a smart phone beside Cell calling and GPS. Language translation. Money exchange rates just having something that takes your location and finds what is around you of interest. The internal cameras are really pretty good now and when you get internet sharing photos getting emails and of course posting to Bike Forums. Regardless of if I used it as my GPS device I would still want it along.

You are a perfect candidate for using a smartphone. As I have pointed out numerous times in this thread, it IS possible with modern smartphones to use the phone as a mapping GPS WITHOUT a network connection. No coverage needed, no crazy data costs. In particular, with the Nokia N8 (and maybe the N9 and Lumia, I'm not sure), high-quality Navteq maps for Czech Republic come free with the phone and take up only 250MB of space on the phone. All you have to do is go into the map application setting and click on Czech Republic and the maps will be downloaded. After that, no wifi or phone network connection needed. For the iPhone, visit the link I gave to see what sorts of maps might be available for Czech Republic for downloading for offline use on the iPhone.

If you really want to buy a dedicated GPS, go ahead. Dedicated mapping GPS's can be useful in some situations. For example, the PCT hikers will soon be crossing Fuller Ridge, which is treacherous this time of year due to snow coverage. A mapping GPS with the GPX for the trail will be useful to keep within 10 meters of so of the buried trail, and thus avoid getting into difficult spots. A quality non-mapping GPS (like my Garmin Foretrex 301) can also be used for this sort of thing, since it also allows downloading GPX files, though it won't look as nice. Combination of Foretrex 301 with 1:42240 Tom Harrison paper map is better than the Etrex for this sort of application, in my opinion: (a) map shows vastly more detail than the Etrex; (b) map continues to be usable if GPS breaks, and all electronics can be expected to eventually break outdoors (like if you drop it on a rock). My Nokia N8 woudl not work for this sort of application since: (a) it doesn't store topo maps offline; (b) doesn't allow setting user datum (NAD27); (c) doesn't shown UTM coordiates to match the grid on the Tom Harrison map; (d) will be damaged if used extensively in rain or snow. In general, anytime I might be bushwhacking over snow-covered mountains, I'd rather have a paper map to use with a quality GPS (either my Foretrex 301 or one of the mapping units), rather than relying on a GPS alone. But every has their own preferred methods for bushwhacking and snow travel.

Despite what has been written by other people in this thread, I continue to see no reason for using a dedicated mapping GPS like the Garmin GPSMAP60 or Etrex for bike touring, other than that these dedicated GPS's are waterproof. Most bike tourers stick to the road, and even with dirt roads, simple road atlas maps (like the Navteq maps on the Nokia N8) should be plenty adequate. This is not cross-country bushwhacking over snow-covered mountains where topo maps are indeed necessary. The advantage of using a smartphone is: (a) much nicer user interface with the maps, including pinch to zoom and swipe to pan, which is even better than what you get with a laptop using Google maps; (b) savings in weight, since the phone can also work as a phone (the Nokia N8 is unlocked by default and you can buy an unlocked version of the ATT iPhone, and these unlocked phone will work seamlessly with SIMS you can buy in Czech republic for like $20 to get like 200 minutes of local talk time and maybe some international time too), camera and provide basic web browsing; (c) savings in money, since you might already have a smartphone or, if you don't, you'll probably want to get one eventually.

I'm hesitant about recommending the Nokia N8, since you'll be angry that it doesn't have all the apps like the iPhone, and no one is writing apps for it anymore other than nokia, and it has a smaller screen than the iPhone and better Android phones. But even though it is almost 2 years old, it still has some advantages over the iPhone and Android phone, from what I can tell.

I don't know how data plans work country-by-country, but I think where the prices get extreme is when roaming on your current plan while overseas. I have heard that you can often, with some phones, pick up a local, pay-as-you-go SIM to pop into your phone and pay local data rates, so that might be worth looking into. Also keep in mind that even if you completely deactivate your cellular data while overseas, a smart phone can do a lot when in wifi that a GPS cannot. If GPS routing is really the only thing you need, a dedicated device may be the way to go, but a smart phone can be have a lot more general utility if you have need of it.

Carbonfiber, we toured CR last summer and will be coming back there again this year. GPS device will be certainly helpful there, but mostly the routes were marked pretty well, so you won't have to look for the navigation suggestions all the time. We had a nice set of "Author" paper maps (that's a Czech bike production brand), it was well updated, at least for the Western part where we were wandering. If you change your mind and want to try a smartphone, then make sure you won't have same problem as i described earlier, turn off the network assistance, leave only true gps in navigation settings, and see how quickly you will get a correct position fix.

UPD. Just checked online maps for couple of places we found to be difficult. For example here, close to the entrance to Prague along Vltava river, in front of Vetrusice, there is a location where you literally have to get off the bike and walk because the path is too narrow with rocks on one side. On the end we did not go there since we had our babies with us and the trailer was simply too wide. Your tandem would make it though w/o problems. While it's still a part of the bike route, Ovi, google do not show the bike path at all. OSM cycle map shows the bike path but no information on the dangerous spot and only the paper maps had a proper warning.

My verdict would be: easy trips - bring whatever with you, feeling geeky - bring a smartphone, want to be sure - bring proper paper maps or any gps device (whatever has the right digital maps and the batteries) and proper paper maps.

The only thing you have to watch out for is the limited battery life. If you want turn-by-turn guidance or a point-by-point record of the entire trip, then a dedicated GPS device is really the best way to go. When riding, I'd much rather have my Garmin Edge 705 for navigation and data-recording than my iPhone 4...

I've heard there might be a problem with smartphones and water? One thing that's for sure on a long tour is that everything that's not in waterproof panniers is going to get wet some time. How do they do out in the rain?

CFboy, getpsimon had good results with his setup, but Im sure it really does come down to how effective your waterproofing is. Im still not convinced at all about having a phone on my handlebar, maybe attached to a barbag which would protect it more from a fall, but one suspects that dedicated gps units are tougher things for both bangs and humidity (due to the seals)

this is the first time i've heard a paper map referred to as heavy. i mean, they weigh what, 20 grams or so?

anyway for starters, texas is by far larger than iowa, and since i rarely leave iowa for my rides, multiple maps aren't an issue. as for smaller sections, yeah, that's the gist of it. i use this lamination material that's basically a slightly larger (1/2" or so) than printer paper clear sticker, apply to both sides of each section and then sections are joined by clear box tape, allowing the sections to be folded.

the reason for the lamination is two-fold. first it keeps it dry, and second, it allows me to mark out a route to follow with the ability to remove it later for other trips. it was mostly for the second reason that i originally did this. hope that helps with the noddle scrathing staehpj1.