I'm a little confused here. My panniers, not made by Ortlieb, are less expensive than if I had gone to Ortlieb. But they're not that much cheaper. I'm comparing one durable waterproof pannier with another and I'm not noticing huge price differences. Likewise, Jandd panniers come in around the same price, slightly less than Ortliebs.

There is a more noticeable price difference between waterproof and non-waterproof panniers, but that's another matter entirely. The comparison is not fair. Non-waterproof packs with good dry bags will provide a cheaper solution than waterproof panniers, but the products are not the same.

+1 on Ortliebs. Although I'm also a fan of Jandds. Pictured, Ortlieb Roller Plus (front and back) and Jandd handlebar and seatbag. All after 10,000 touring miles.
http://www.ziligy.com/photos/posts/S...AcadiaPark.jpg

When five friends and I decided to ride X-continent in '76, I wasn't about to buy panniers (costly) so instead I went to the hardware store and bought two plastic waste baskets, two sash lifters, plumbers tape and misc nuts and bolts. The sash hangers were bent to fit snugly on the bars of my vinyl covered steel rack (can't recall manufacturer) then bolted (2 of 'em) to the top of the basket. The spring was bolted to basket and the plumbers tape was formed to guide the spring to a "U" at the bottom where a formed hook could crab a part of the racks lower cross bar. A tug up snapped them in place and a tug up unhooked them in seconds. I sewed up what looked like shower caps for the tops. I used them for years, still have them somewhere. I doubt I had $10 into them. My buddy copied the design for his girlfriend and his bike. After a month on the road we looked like gypsies and certaintly not magazine models. Our bikes had stuff draped all over including bike ponchos, bags of bread, powdered milk, honey bear, shirts, ground cloths, ensolite pads, with maps, sunblock, hats, sleeping bags, and etc strapped on.. We had a blast without thinking a bit about kit "looks".

This is well put! And I'd add that people judge others all the time based on incomplete information and/or assumptions about the motivations of the people they are judging.

So you see 50 people on bikes sporting Ortlieb panniers. The fact is that every person who has bought Ortlieb panniers has a different story. One might be on his first long tour and wants to use what his friend uses; a few might like the perceived safety and resale value of a recognized brand; some may have bought them used; one might be borrowing a friend's; one might be an old hand who has tried all sorts of other things along the way; another might like the fact that the Ortliebs are made in Germany; and on and on it goes.

This sounds like the predecessor of the cat litter box panniers. Great idea, sounds a lot better than the junky first set of panniers that I bought around that time.

Question: Your personal experience touring with Ortlieb panniers?

That's how I did my 2,000 mile tour, on a Walmart bought Schwinn sidewinder.

Touring is 90 percent mental and 10 percent about the actual equipment. Yet so few people talk about the mental aspects of touring.,

People worry a lot about the what-ifs, especially with Americans. Fear sells really well in America and it's I noticed part of the fabric of American society. Nothing wrong with this, but it does feed itself into an industry where people can charge whatever they want to provide solutions to the what-ifs scenarios. People who tour on anything basically have a really strong mind, determined to do what they like and face whatever hardship they may encounter. That's what touring is all about, but then sometimes people I met on the road concerned themselves more about their gear possessions, tour tactics, tour setup, tour classifications much like amateur sports of today. Apparently, there are run coaches out there that tell you that you're not a real runner if you haven't done a marathon even though a lot of joggers out there are contend into doing just 5 to 10km. Or triathlete coaches who are out there telling amateur triathletes if they hadn't done a 70.3 or an Ironman Hawaii, you are nothing. These are things and expectation people feed into your brain that you don't necessarily have to do. And yet, some of us do them. This is no different in touring.

So yeah, any sport is all mental. Mental being others influencing some of us to behave and expect to behave like what they want. People who apparently tour on anything basically say nobody is controlling my life and I don't have to be slaves of anyone's expectation. I admire that trait and I have had the privilege of meeting quite a few of these people. Are you a slave of someone else's expectation and views?

Ortlieb is not the only company that makes the so called overpriced panniers. Arkel Overdesigns in Canada also makes some of the most expensive panniers imagined compared to Axiom and MEC which are direct competitors against these 2 brands.

Hey OldZ, we also went through War Road, Lake of the Woods, Baudette, Duluth...I remember those areas well. Bought a quart of unleaded gas in Duluth for my Svea 123 stove. Rode by the Diamond Tool and Horseshoe factory as well.

A couple of years ago, a friend and I went for a Sunday afternoon ride. He had gotten into cycling recently and he knew I had been riding for many years. The ride was not a lot of fun for either of us.

His goal was to become a better cyclist, by which he meant a faster cyclist. He had spent a lot on his bike and he had learned much about riding close in a pack. Because of the speeds he tried to maintain, he suffered on some of the hills and by the time we finished the ride, he felt tired.

I'm used to touring, commuting and running errands on my bike, so speed isn't a factor for me. I'm more interested in just being out and having a good time. This ride had me riding probably eight kilometres an hour faster than my usual pace. Normally, I'll keep the speed down but I can last for hours. Also, because I'm not used to riding in packs, I felt crowded at times. This ride felt like work, like serious business.

Where are we today? Well, I'm still riding. I'm not fast but I'm on my bike almost every day. My friend realized he would not be the fastest rider in the bunch and he has since put away his bike. He has taken up running.

Nobody brought up Heinz Stucke yet? Okay, I will:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Stucke
Not only has he been touring constantly for decades on the "wrong" kind of bike, I don't think he wears a helmet either. That's just got to drive some people absolutely nuts.

As I posted earlier (7-29 post at 11:39 a.m.), I don't own Ortliebs. I've used top loading panniers in the past and after using those and then using side-loading panniers, I prefer ones with more pockets that load from the side, so I don't think I would get Ortliebs for my own use. I commute to work most days on my bike so my panniers receive very frequent use, and I just don't want to use top loaders. I acknowledge that there are advantages to top loading panniers, different strokes and all that.

The person who brought up the whole Ortlieb business in this thread was talking about the motivations of people who have purchased them, and on that subject I do have some knowledge about that from talking with people who have Ortliebs. For example, we are warmshowers hosts (great fun, by the way!), and I think 4 of our guests thus far this summer used them. A friend whom I ride with used them when he toured in Europe and has used them in this country as well. Our son owns a set. He went down the Pacific Coast with them. The same is true of his friend who accompanied him. There are others, but that's what comes to mind right now.

Does that answer your question?

Stanley bought Diamond Tool and Horseshoe, got the brand, then closed the factory (who knows where they shipped the production). Must have been around 20 years ago. And the Svea 123 -- I remember backpacking with one in the 70s. I think they are still available.

I wonder why he needs to make the front part like a farm machine. I can't imagine him traveling too far with all that crap held together by angle iron.

Some of his apparel and the bike bottle also indicate that he believes in using whatever will do instead of what he is supposed to do by his LBS.:thumb:

He beat me to my plan.

That is a great strategy!

yes

Maybe (guessing) that's because most people who frequent this forum just take the mental aspects for granted, if I'm understanding your point correctly. People who have toured know about the mental challenges of touring even if they have a hard time articulating them (as I think I do). I don't think I fully appreciated the mental aspects of touring until I did a tour last year with my girlfriend, who had never toured before. We had some good days, but there were several days where heat, shoulder-less roads with logging trucks, and some strenuous climbs were factors. My girlfriend was not able to enjoy the tour because of those things, and we ended up cutting the trip short.

On the climbs, for example, I thought she did just fine. She was able to climb up and over mountain passes without looking too winded, and never walked the bike up. But she hated it. One climb was "supposed" to be three miles long (she meticulously studied this route so knew where all the climbs were and how long they were supposed to be). When we were still climbing at 3.1 miles she started getting pissed.

She is a sweetheart and I love her dearly, but we won't be doing that kind of touring together anymore. We are going to attempt a cc tour on the Katy this fall, and I think that should be more her speed.

Is that the kind of thing you meant by the mental aspects of touring? Maybe you could start a new thread about it. I'd be interested to see what you and others have to say about it.

I enjoy his journals, too. I discovered him by pure accident when perusing CGOAB late one night. Nice to see someone touring with what he has.

Like Aaron, I enjoy riding my Raleigh 3-speed, and have put in some 50 mile rides on it. This summer I wanted to take a week and ride about 300 miles, from the old family farm to my home. I mentioned my plan to some cyclist acquaintances, and they thought I was crazy.

I've had to postpone the trip (maybe next year), but not because I don't have the "right" gear.

I've had a variety of 3 speeds over the years and I liked them. I even toured in the UK on a pre-WWII Raleigh with an enclosed chain. Only 2 of the 3 speeds worked reliably (low and high) and I pushed the bike up a lot of hills, but I could still go 40+ miles a day even on that heavy beast.

I think a 3 speed would be fun to tour on! But it would be best where it's not terribly hilly. I ended up selling ours because it was just too hard for me to go up the hills here in Duluth without lower gearing.

Not me! Thirty five days of rain during this trip.

http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/y...1/IMG_5105.jpg

FWIW- My perception after riding in Europe for 3 months was that the majority of European bike tourists tended to use Ortlieb panniers. I'm including the town-to-town elderly couples to the "hard core" touring cyclists that I encountered. Not a formal sample, but an observation.

The one "sample" that I did take was on the types of bikes being ridden. One day I categorized the next 100 bikes that I passed. About 97% used flat bars and 94% of the people were on bikes that looked like mountain bikes or had suspension forks, which leaves only about 3% of the bikes looking like the touring bikes described on this forum.

For the sake of experiment I've done recently some singlespeed touring, fully loaded (but light), with two kids in the trailer. And lots of riding light.
It's absolutely true that it's fun, but only if it doesn't weight a ton. Or let's put it other way, if you can gain and maintain some significant speed quickly then touring on SS or 3sp is fun and totally comparable in most situations to the 3x9 systems. Somehow pushing up a not so long ascend is Ok for me. But if it's its too heavy and slow than it's rather a pain (and a bother for the fellow riders). Even the slightest hill requires huge efforts because there is no extra momentum to attack it with.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7075/7...23a419cd_c.jpg