seeker, Thanks for putting these spread sheets together! Exactly what I wanted to do next month while I am off. It'll bee alot easier now with most of the work already done. I will add an Americano to the mix when I do it-although I think mainly just to compare. I am on the record somewhere saying to save the coin and go with the LHT. I just with that Surly would make the Disc Trucker frameset with couplers. Maybe for 2014.......fingers crossed......please?!

Had a 58cm Saga, and it was too big (sold it). Waiting on a demo 56cm LHDT.

How was the 58 SS too big? You could have swapped in a 10mm shorter stem and achieved the same fit as the 56cm SDT for a lot less money.

The SO height on the 56 SDT is actually 7mm higher than the 58 SS. The only thing ""smaller" about the 56 SDT is the HT length, which is shorter by 33mm, and the Front Center, which is 9mm shorter. You're more likely to have toe overlap on the 56 SDT.

The 58 Saga was too long, which was exacerbated by an STA that was steeper than claimed. By the time I got the saddle in the correct position, I ended up running a very short stem. I'd definitely consider another Saga, but in the 56cm size.

I'm not buying a/the LHDT--it's a loaner for a review.

Toe overlap doesn't bother me. My "go-fast" bike has overlap, and I've never noticed it above sub-walking speed.

You're welcome.

I don't think I'd spend much time comparing a $400 frameset to a 5x$400 frameset. I'd use the $1600 "savings" to fund a trip.

Have you considered a Surly Troll or Ogre? I pipe up after noticing that wide tires were mentioned.
My Ogre can handle up to 700c x 2.5' and I believe the Troll wider again albeit in 26'.
They can of course also handle skinny tyres but I like the plush comfort of my 2.35 Big Apples for day to day duty but will swap out to 2 inch Schwalbe Mondials for all surface touring.
My Ogre fits Tubus racks fine (I've Cosmo and Nova), accepts three water bottles (2 BBB XL Fuel Tanks with 1.5 liter bottles), BB7 disk brakes and almost completed installing Gilles Berthoud fenders.
I'm enjoying the Rohloff rear hub and as soon as the fenders are on to my satisfaction and I've ironed out any foibles I'll add my Edelux headlight and E-werk charging system to allow me to strip and refurb my Moulton which the Ogre is replacing.
I toyed with the idea of a Disk Trucker but thought the Ogre a little more versatile for my use.
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=326097http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=326098

I actually have seriously considered the Ogre in the past. I love that it has disc tabs (especially that the rear is inside the rear triangle as to not interfere with rack fitting) and v-brake bosses, but I just couldn't get over the horizontal dropouts...I hate them with a passion. If it didn't have those horizontal dropouts, I'm confident that it would be my favorite bike ever.

Ahh, my least favorite feature.
Yes, as yet I've no idea if, when the rear fender is on, I'll be able to get the rear wheel in the slots even whilst deflated - it'll be close.
I've been told it can be done with the plastic planet bike cascadias but I'm using stainless Berthouds.
If not I'll be exploring putting a hinge in the rear fender to see if that helps.
I'm awaiting fittings including a Tubus rack fender mount which attaches to the tail-light mounting on the Cosmo.
I was wondering about a hinge just south of there allowing a little more access to the dropout slots after releasing the fender stays.
Even then if its possible, I still dont own enough hands to hold every thing needed to perform the exercise and imagine the bike will have to be laid on its side to remove and install the rear wheel.
I wont be able to put it upside down "in the field" without removal of handle bar cockpit additions like gps etc making for just as big a job as fender removal as an alternative.
Does make for a pain in the rear exercise.
Other than that negative (in the back of my mind) I'm very happy with the bike and am slowly extending my saddle break in rides.

The following PM was sent to me today in response to this thread. I'm posting it (without username) for future reference:

"I was building my Saga up around the excellent Bruce Gordon Rock-N-Road 700 x 45 tires. I am running a 25mm wide rims, and although there is a couple mm clearance (at the most) there is no way I would ride this, rubbing would be almost constant. I have used 38 mm tires from Bontrager (cyclocross)and Schwalbe (Kojaks)with ample room. I haven't yet mounted fenders to my my Saga. I hope this helps."

I continue to believe the Saga won't actually accept the size tires claimed on the Soma website (Max tire fit: 700x47c or 26x2.1").

Well my frame is on its way already. I think I actually have some new-ish 47c's out in the shed, lower profile than those bruce gordons. The wheels I'l be riding are 20mm wide. I'll check the fit and see if the few mm narrower on rim width make enough clearance at the outer edge of the tire...I'll post pics here when everything is set. This weekend if I'm lucky. It'll be nice if they fit but for me it's really not a deal breaker. I probably wouldn't even want to ride anything wider than 1.5" on a bike like that anyway.

Built up a Disc trucker (700c, 58cm) this spring. I am loving it!

FWIW - My 60 cm Saga as SKS P50 700c fenders and Conti Cross Ride 42-622 (700c x 42) tires. The rear has ample room but it's a bit tight up front. The Conti's measure a true 42mm and I think with a bit of adjusting the fenders will have sufficient clearance. Note the tires are mounted on Alex Adventure rims which are 24.2mm - wider than road race rims (typically 19mm). Without fenders the 42's would easily fit, and there probably are some 45's which would fit. If I can't get sufficient clearance with the fenders I'll drop down to 40 or 37 mm tires, but I do love the Cross Ride for gravel roads and gentle single track.

Toe overlap is definitely a concern - I wear size 13 (47 metric) and my shoes just barely hit the fenders. As others have posted, I too have had many bikes with overlap and it's just a matter of learning to be careful when making low speed turns.

Another thot for anyone looking to build up a low cost touring/commuting or do anything bike - there are LOTS of excellent quality steel mountain bikes from the 80's and 90's. My first "Frankenbike" was a circa '88 Stumpjumper Comp. I used it for commuting and pulling a Bob trailer. For about $100 one could have a steel frame builder braze on pannier mounts. I'm just starting my 2nd Frankenbike project with a '95 vintage Trek 930 as my son took Frank-1 off to college.

One last comment regarding the oversized head tube - the Saga user larger diameter tubes than the LHT. Tube stiffness is proportional to the square or cube of the tube's diameter. Sorry I don't recall which but the point is that a larger diameter will significantly increase the tube's stiffness. Stiffer tubes which will flex less should provide more precise steering, especially when under load. Excessively flexible bikes (yes I have two) will be prone to oscillate at speed. IMO having stiff top and down tubes makes for a safer riding bike. I've yet to ride a 60 or 62 cm bike which is too stiff so not a problem for me, but the Saga's tubing possibly is not ideal tubing for a small rider on a 50cm bike.

Bottom line - love my Saga! :-)