Hey guys, my current bike (Marin Four Corners) has short chainstays for a touring bike (135) and I have long feet. As it stands now, with my panniers pushed as far back as they'll go, I get a bout 1 cm of clearance between my heel and panniers depending on the panniers and my shoes that day. Also, I like fenders and my current setup has the rear fender rubbing against the front derailleur because it just so tight in that area. I am looking at getting a new frame/fork, either LHT or Soma Saga or maybe any other that someone suggests. I am leaning towards the Saga because of the kickstand plate and the awesome color scheme this year (British Racing Green). I realize the vast majority has/had the LHT but I really want to hear what people have to say about the Saga because I've read so little about it and so much about the LHT. Your thoughts and comparisons please...

I'm in the market for a touring bike and I'm leaning towards the saga because of the awesome paint job! What better reason is there to buy a bike? Soma bikes are very fine (I love my soma doublecross) and I'd have no hesitation in buying the saga. The LHT and the Saga are very similar in terms of frame quality. The one advantage that the LHT might have is that you can get a 26 inch wheel version even in a larger frame size. 26 inch wheels have some advantages (IMHO) over 700c for touring but not enough to outweigh the great saga paint scheme and the hideous LHT one. Surley needs to get a iife when it comes to color schemes for their bikes.

... different importing distributors, but the TW factory exporting them could be the same, ..
QBP has more dealer accounts than Merry Sales ..

yea the addition of a Kick stand plate is a practical feature.

Personally, I would choose the Soma Saga hands down. That's primarily because it would fit me better. Surly models all have relatively long top tubes and short head tubes, not what I want in a touring and/or commuting bike. The Saga would fit much better if you like to run your handlebars higher. As mentioned, the Saga also looks much nicer. To me, it would be a no-brainer. However, if the Surly geometry fits you better, than the LHT would probably be the better choice.

I had the same question with the Trek 520 in the mix as well, so interested in the responses. I like that the Saga is sold as a frame set, so you can build it up how you want. For the LHT, can you buy just the frame? I like the the disc trucker color (also green) better than the non-disc LHT. For me the Saga or LHT would be 26" while the Trek would be 700c.

I've attached an image from a spreadsheet comparing geometries which I put together last year when I was shopping for a new frameset. Comparing sizes 50-60cm, on average:

1. LHT chainstays are longer by 10mm.

2. LHT BB drop is 2mm shorter, so BB height is 2mm higher.

3. LHT standover height is higher by 24mm.

4. LHT heat tube length is shorter by 12mm.

5. LHT effective top tube length is longer by 4mm.

6. LHT head tube angle about the same.

7. LHT seat tube angle a little more slack in 58 and 60.

8. LHT wheelbase is longer by 14mm.

As tarwheel noted, the Saga does have a shorter TT and longer HT, which was also helpful in my case fit-wise.

The SO height difference was also advantageous for me, but I couldn't determine where they measured it (nor could CS from email/call I made). If they measure right in front of saddle, a steeper angled TT will indeed have more SO, but if measured near the HT it may actually have less SO. My mtb-based road bike's SO height varies by 3" depending on where I measure in the 15" of open TT between front of saddle and HT. I assume they measure in the center of the TT, which is usual convention.

The LHT has a 14mm longer wheelbase mostly due to longer CS and longer TT. Longer wheelbase is usually a good thing on a touring bike, as it's more stable. Since the Saga's chainstays (aka "rear center") are 10mm shorter than the LHT, the "front center" (distance from BB to front wheel axle) is 4mm shorter than a LHT. This means toe overlap (front of shoe or toe clip striking front tire or fender when wheel is turned sharply) is more likely on the Saga. Since I own a 56cm/700c Surly, and it has toe overlap with fender mounted, it is almost a certainty that toe overlap will occur on the Saga in size 56, where the front center is 6mm shorter than on the LHT.

At various times I've read the Saga won't take very large tires, despite the spec on their webpage. CS rep simply quoted the stupid website to me when I inquired, so no confidence from that conversation. I read/corresponded with three sources who claimed tire size was limited. I made a comment about it here @ bf.net and was once rebutted that the Saga did indeed accept 700x45s. Since there's no way I can inspect one physically I'm left relying on anecdote, so 3 say it won't take large tires, 1 says it will. I've wondered if this was an issue on early production models that was later remedied. Perhaps a Saga owner can weigh in on this subject.

The decals on the Saga are clear-coated-over, so you can't remove them like the LHT, but then hardly anyone would want to remove decals from Saga. Some LHT owners strip the decals for appearance sake.

The Saga has an oversized diameter head tube, which looks a little funny and makes me wonder why they used it. Obviously it's stiffer, but that's usually not an issue on a touring bike, even with longer HTs. I guess it's to simplify making the TT and DT joints, but all I know for sure is it makes the frameset heavier.

Surly apparently sells >10 LHTs for every Saga sold. I have to wonder how this affects quality of the frameset. Having owned a LHT and DT, I know the joint welds are as good as any steel bike anywhere. I don't know about the Saga - the few hi-res pics I've seen look like the welds are not as consistent as Surly (Maxway), but it's hard to tell without better pics or a frame in hand to inspect. The Saga claims it's made from a Tange Prestige, while Surly claims a generic 4130 (Prestige is also a 4130 alloy). If Saga is made from Tange Prestige, it is likely used only on the main triangle, with stays made from cheaper steel. I figure whatever unknown steel Maxway uses in Surly is also used when they make frames for Salsa, Jamis, Ritchey, Dawes, Greenspeed, Rans etc, so good enough for me. I have a 1991 Tange Prestige mtb frame, and it's nothing special to ride. I'm less concerned about the grade of 4130 used and more concerned about the strength of joints, placement of bosses, frame alignment, and the dozen other things that can go wrong. I don't know who makes Soma tigged frames, but their lugged frame is made by Maxway. Maxway of Taiwan has a great reputation, and they've been making the LHT for 10 years now, with only one year where they screwed anything up to any significant extent on the LHT, so this carried some weight in my decision.

You can buy a Saga for $425 or a LHT for $399, shipped, so the price is about the same.

British Racing Green is a good color for a bike or a roadster. I have to wonder if Surly didn't pick Super Dark Green after seeing the Saga with it's new not-purple paint job. Out of the 9 colors they've used on the LHT I only liked about 3 of them.

In the end I chose a 700c Surly Disc Trucker, partly because I like disc brakes, and partly because the 26" LHT I already had seemed like a great value to me. It was hard for me to choose the Saga even with fit advantages when there were unresolved issues, and I couldn't afford to risk my meager bike budget on a relatively unknown frame.

Sweet! Thanks for all the data. I like what people are saying about the shorter TT, I like being a little more upright. Also, I've seen a photo of the newest 26" Saga with 2.1" wide knobbies, which is the max that soma says will fit. It their numbers hold true for the 700 as well, I will be very happy with a max tire width of 47mm. That's more than I would ever want on a 700c wheel.

You can still get very upright with a LHT, just get the steerer uncut. With an uncut steerer you can get the bars on the LHT ridiculously high if you want.

Equally important, raising the bar shortens reach.

1---> Raising the handlebar literally shortens reach (the horizontal distance from saddle to handlebar). For every 3cm of bar height increase, you shorten reach ~1cm. Mathematically this is expressed simply as: reach reduction = cosine (head tube angle) x height increase. If you raise the bar on a 54cm LHT (HTA=71d) by adding three 10mm headset spacers, you will shorten the reach by exactly 9.767mm.

2---> Stand with arms hanging straight down, then raise your arms fully extended, and note the arc your hands form as they move ultimately to a horizontal position. As you raise your arms, the horizontal distance your hands reach increases. This also happens with regards to bar height - as you raise bar, your hand position is raised, and your arms "grow" in reach.

These two factors together mean that as a handlebar is raised, it becomes easier to reach the normal grip location. A frame that may seem too large based only on a glance at the effective top tube (ETT) length may in fact fit perfectly, or even be a bit short when the final handlebar position is considered.

Some believe the ETT length on LHTs to be long for a road type bike. Road bikes are typically designed so that the seat tube length and effective top tube length are equal. Using only ETT length to predict fit works better with road bikes, because the handlebar is typically pretty low. But touring bikes usually are fitted with a higher bar, which shortens reach more than the ETT only would predict. The "long" ETT of a LHT actually makes sense, because by the time you raise the bar you need every bit of the ETT, if not more.

Yeeeeeeeesssssss, I am aware of that. I am only pointing out you can get the bars high on a LHT. The face it has a non-sloping top tube also helps. It is pretty much designed to run easily with the seat level with the bars, although I have had mine above the seat at times. The top tube on a LHT is also quite long so many people actually would welcome the shortened reach.

All this can be accounted for when you buy the frame.

It's not long if you set your handlebar about even with the saddle, or even higher - that's merely your perception. The reality of a finished bike is different from a frame geometry table, which is what I attempted to explain in #9.

The fact that the (average) LHT ETT is 4mm longer than the Soma Saga ETT is insignificant when you have the capability of shortening reach by 30-60mm with stem choice and bar height.

I am aware of that, once again. I am only pointing out that it is very easy to get your bars upright on the LHT. Mine were above the saddle, now they are even. I'm not sure why you are arguing with me when we are saying essentially the same thing.

Very true. I have a 56" SOMA Saga and wish I had gotten a 58". I had the steerer tube cut abou an inch above the headset as well in case my neck gets worse.

However, I really like the Saga and although Surly says that kickstands have no place on tourers, I highly disagree and that is the main reason I didn't by a Surly. Btw, the paint job on the Saga is top notch.

Have you determined the tire size limit for your Saga frameset? Is it really 700x47mm as stated on Soma website?

I purchased a set of Schwalbe Marathon Dureme Mondial Double Defense 700 x 40 tires for my Saga. I was unable to fit the on the front with fenders installed. I was able to install them on the rear. I ended up getting a set of Scwalbe 700 x 32 and installing that tire in the front and using the same split set on my Cannondale 700 Silkpath Touring Hybrid I use for touring.

I purchased a set of Schwalbe Marathon Dureme Mondial Double Defense 700 x 40 tires for my Saga. I was unable to fit the on the front with fenders installed. I was able to install them on the rear. I ended up getting a set of Scwalbe 700 x 32 and installing that tire in the front and using the same split set on my Cannondale 700 Silkpath Touring Hybrid I use for touring.

I bet those 700x40s actually measure 35-37mm, as I never heard of a Schwalbe that actually measured nominal size.

700x32 is pretty limiting to me, I wouldn't want to use this off-pavement if I had the choice, would rather have 700x37 or larger depending on the road/trail.

This was a big reason why I picked a Surly over the Soma. I've had 700x45 tires which actually measured 42mm wide along with 52mm Velo Orange Zeppelin fenders on my Surly Disc Trucker. Surly claims "45mm without mudguards; 42mm with mudguards" on their 700c LHT/DT framesets and I can confirm this is accurate.

This is one of the main reasons I went with the LHT as well. I wanted the option to run wider tires. It is always nice having options.

+1

The capability of fitting larger tires on a touring bike is kind of a big deal.

I saw the picture below (when I was hunting for Saga with larger tires) and had a minor epiphany - the Saga definitely has toe overlap in some sizes for bicyclists with average size feet. Edited post #6 to explain increased likelihood of toe overlap on Saga.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QvpAd50irs...omaSaga+DT.jpg

AARRRGGGHHH! Man, I had that toe contact issue with my last bike, I forgot how annoying it is... I've got a lot more thinking to do about this then. But, you know...I am going to be getting the 60cm frame so this should be minimized...

Wow, that is serious. I went with the 26 inch wheels for many reasons. I know I will never have overlap issues like that.

I revised the Saga v LHT spreadsheet attached in #6, adding Chainstay Length (Rear Center) and Front Center columns, and transposing the format to better fit the page:



On my 56cm Surly Disc Trucker (geometry identical to LHT) I have probably ~10mm of toe overlap with fenders fitted (the fenders are spaced to accommodate 700x42 tires), and my size 44 shoes (10.5 US). If I could fit a 60 Saga I would probably have no toe overlap since it has an extra 19mm of front center - I'd instead have a 9mm clearance.

If your shoes aren't huge, and the Saga won't take more than ~35mm tire on front, and your fender is fit pretty close (no more than 10mm gap), then you probably won't have toe overlap.

The 60 LHT would give you an additional 5mm of front center.

Of course you can live with toe overlap easily, since it occurs only when turning in a tight (10') radius - you just have to learn to not pedal while making these U-turn type maneuvers.

Yeah, I've got size US 13 feet. Combined with the longer crank arm length I may still have a problem...but dang it all if that british racing green isn't worth it. I'm gonna do it. I'll post pics when I get it all together, could be a few weeks. Thanks all.

Still looking for the most practical frame for my tourer. I ride road bike size 52. Would Saga size 52 be the correct frame size for me? I was told that surly LHT size 50 would be best for my height and inseam. 5'7", 30".

If you are still looking, you are probably over-analyzing.