FatPow

Hi, I'm looking for feedback on a design I have for a touring hub. This hub is designed for use in areas where there won't be easy access to a bicycle shop if you were to break down.

The advantages are that there is a 1:1 ratio of spoke tensions between drive and non-drive sides, and also if spokes were to break, you can replace them without having to remove the cassette, hence you don't need to carry all those heavy tools with you. Further advantages are that it is compatible with Shimano freehubs so it's easy to find cheap replacement parts, and the overall cost is much lower than Rohloff, Phil Wood, or Hope hubs. The cone wrenches that come with it can remove that axle and the bearings, or tighten the lockring if need be.

Here are some pictures of the prototype:



Would you buy this hub? If so, what's the maximum amount you would pay?

Thanks,
Matt

10 Wheels

How much do they cost?

FatPow

I'm not sure how much they cost yet, it depends on how much demand there is. I would guess about 100$ for a complete hub though, so 150$ to 200$ for a nice rear wheel.

iohan.gue

Looks interesting, is there a specific reason why the drive side where the spokes are attached is not disk shaped?

FatPow

Johan, that's so that you can remove broken spokes and lace fresh ones in without interference from the hub flange or the rest of the spokes. You'll notice that the drive side is laced single cross and the non-drive side is laced triple cross.

robow

Do you remember how short the spoke the length was required for that hub, just curious. Like the concept.

JerrySTL

Interesting. This past summer I was on a 5-day tour and broke a spoke under the cassette. Even though I had spare spokes, I couldn't change it because I didn't have the tool to remove the cassette. I rode over 100 miles that way. Thank goodness for 36 spoke wheels!

FatPow

I believe they are 244mm with these Rhyno Lite rims. * edit just checked my matlab code

I also had to ride once with several broken spokes until the next bike shop on a tour across Canada. By the way, nice tour Iohan! I used to live and tour in BC and then in Alaska.

fietsbob

key hole fittings for the right side spokes (3 cross, 36 hole )
was another way to feed spokes in without pulling off the gear cluster

head sized hole in the center of a slot, spokes hooked into the ends of the slot.

suggestions? make the drive side big enough to not have chain cut into the J hook end of the head in spokes ,

and or add a Spoke protector disc to prevent over shifting damage..

Its one way spokes do an unnecessary death.

robow

Drive and non-drive side?

FatPow

244 mm on the drive side, 280 mm on the non-drive side. The drive side flange is 65mm radius, with 4 degree offset between the spoke holes, and the non-drive side flange is 50mm radius with no offset.

fietsbob

I see mixed patterns Rt 1X L, 3X

FatPow

If you're interested in the exact tension ratio specs, it's 1.25 for non-drive triple cross, and 1.15 for non-drive quadruple cross, versus 1.6-1.7 for something like a Shimano XT.

B. Carfree

Other than cost, there's no advantage here over a Phil hub laced to an OC rim. An allen wrench gets the cassette (okay, the entire freehub) off to access drive side spokes and the OC rim allows for near-equal drive/non-drive spoke tensions. I'll pay the extra $350 for the proven Phil. Over the life of the hub, 250,000 miles for my last one, the cost difference rather disappears over time.

Even though I do a lot of off-road touring, I've never broken a spoke on a rear wheel. It's not like I baby them; I've broken axles, destroyed tires and, in the freewheel era, just devastated freewheel bodies. (I'm not light, weighing in at just a few kg short of clyde.) In my experience, a well-built wheel just doesn't have spoke breakage issues.

ham

Wouldn't putting a lower geared cassette than what you have on there now defeat the whole purpose of the hub?

pamaguahiker 

I agree with the above adjustments. I think it is a very interesting concept and in todays ever changing market. I believe there is always room for improvement and room for innovative ideas. I look at the hub you have and see a very reasonable offering to the market. You appear to have a prototype, are doing the research for the possibility, hopefully you will continue this correct path for feeling out the interest in the idea. Like checking into possible sources for making it and bringing it to production if it would come to it. I am assuming by the photo and your details. You have given this a good deal of thought already. I hate seeing 'kickstarter' projects for backers when the actual people attempting to get my start up dollars have done NO research or show you a prototype then after it is funded begin the layout process. It is puzzling to see them butcher shipping dates or suddenly scramble for parts and pieces or production details. I believe they should have that all worked out ahead of time if they really wish to bring it to market. My soap box on that goes to a recent project that i highly doubt the end product will results in what the original product had in mind. I recently heard that the prototype in the kickstarter ads were actually an off market item already on the market, just far cheaper. It has made me far more cautious in my support in the future.

Off that soap box, I could definitely see a cost advantage and ease of use advantage. Especially if you are using the hub for more off road touring, camping bike. Of course heavy tools with a load isn't a big deal but it is a nice added insurance policy knowing the hub itself would be easier. I like the look. By any chance, was it modeled after a motorcycle type hub set up?

Back to my prior, prior thought, I think it is there would be a viable, actual useful purpose and market for a hub type like this. I know there are others out there, but people like options, not overlooking the fact that it is USEFUL. It has Utility quality! Just recently i was reading in Bicycle Retailer and ...BRAIN...and i saw a $300 conversion kit that added the ability to mount a rear derailleur, shifter, cable, to a fixed gear frameset so it would make it 'usable' if you ever decided to outfit it for gearing. I just shook my head. I have heard that it has actually had some success but overall the concept is a bit puzzling as most fixie framesets that i saw getting outfitted with the kit as prototypes were dime a dozen cookie cutter frames, generic so-to-speak. Frames that gave no versatility, probably that didn't wholesale for over $139 and geometry that would make you feel like you were riding a drunkin' squirrel along the power line.

just my 2 cents....and a bit more. I like the hub FatPow!

Tourist in MSN

I have carried a cassette removal tool on my past tours, never needed it. But would I go out and buy new spokes and a new hub and lace up a wheel to be able to avoid carrying the cassette tools? Probably not. The tools are not heavy enough that I would spend the money and make the effort to avoid carrying the tools.

For reference, we are talking about a cassette tool with two of the flats filed down to work with a smaller crescent wrench, a crescent wrench that fits on it, a short piece of chain and cord to substitute for a chain whip. Not sure what the weight is, but more than half of the weight is the 6 inch crescent wrench.

If I was building up a new wheel from scratch for touring, that is where I might be interested in a hub like this. But if the hub weighed more than the sum of the weights of the regular hub and tools, then I might lose interest. You were silent on weight of the hub.

I use a spoke protector. I do not want to run the risk that I will get a bent dropout or other part that could allow the derailleur cage to get into the spokes. I am well aware that most bikers look upon spoke protectors with disdain, but I actually buy them to install on my wheels.

I think you need to ask the companies that produce the higher end non-Rohloff touring bikes what they would pay for a hub like this. But they would want to know how robust the axle and bearings and seals are so that they do not buy the solution to one problem and inadvertently buy a new problem.

What I would like is a cassette removal tool that instead of needing a crescent wrench, would work with the 6mm Allen wrench that I use on my pedals. That way I could avoid carrying the weight of the crescent wrench. I tried to make an adapter that would work, but I was afraid that my adapter was not robust enough so I gave up on the adapter and carry the crescent wrench.

Good luck, innovation is good. Who knows, Shimano might buy your patents from you when you patent it, if you have not done so already.

MichaelW

No one makes a Shimano-freehub compatable hub? Why has no-one else done this.
Shimano own the patent on this technology.

This is all to solve the problem caused by the Pamir Hypercraker being unavailable. I use amodern cassette craker (NBT2). It is the Next Best Thing to a Hypercracker. Again, patents prevent people copying the essential tool.

pamaguahiker 

Yea, patents would be the helpful way. Til some Asian company tagged along with no worries to steal the design. Patents can be really pricey. Maybe the other idea is to simply only make small quantities and keep your production minimal yet enough to satisfy your wishes and be content. Unless you are worried about making a mint. You appear to be content to provide something that others would benefit from and put food on your table, not build yourself into a Shimano kingdom. I like the overall idea.

As mentioned by some veteran posters above, Maybe the real key lies in speaking with some product engineers at several of the big names regarding new design possibilities. You never know. On longer stretches or planned camping touring, i just deal with the added weight of tools, and usually have several appropriate size spokes with me in case. I put the correct sizes for drive and non-drive side in the bottom of the panniers that i carry on the drive and non-drive site. The usually don't get any stress or damage and i can quickly retrieve if i need them. I have broken many spokes on several road bicycles and know what a pain it can be, especially with specialty wheels with few spokes. It can really be a buzzkill for the entire ride. Knocking on wood but i have NEVER had to use any but i feel i am adding a bit of insurance by carrying them. Maybe some karma...it's there and the first time i remove it....i will break a spoke.

fietsbob

As far as the Cassettes , Shimano has a Habit of making a new 'standard'

which others have to follow to make compatible parts..

Sram, Sun Race and a bunch of other hubs & cassette makers , adopt the spline pattern.
to try to get a slice of the Market share.

FatPow

I think one of the main advantages here over Phil Wood (other than 350$) is that if you're touring in remote areas and your freehub stops working, it's very easy to find a Shimano freehub and not so easy to find a Phil Wood one. I imagine a set-up for really remote areas like where I used to tour in Alaska where you've got, say a Surly Ogre with a 135mm snow-bike fork, one of these hubs in the back, and a double-disk hub in the front with a bolt on fixed gear cog, so that you can swap wheels if your freehub goes.

The weight on the prototype wasn't too bad, most of the weight is in the freehub if I remember correctly. I would imagine it's lighter than a Rohloff. I'm going to do finite element analysis to see where more weight can be shaved from the inside of the hub and the wall thicknesses.

The bearings are standard press-fit sealed cartridges on the non-drive side, and the drive side bearings are in the standard Shimano freehub.

The cassette on there is a 34 tooth.

I have seen and used hypercrackers, and I would think that there is an ease-of use advantage here; those tools are hard to use without causing damage.

Thanks for the feedback. I think one of the steps is definitely to talk to the bike manufacturers as well as Shimano. I noticed that plenty of frames come with extra spoke holders, but how many people actually tour with a crescent wrench and chain whip? If this hub came standard on the Trek 520 or Surly Long Haul Trucker, that would be huge. For now it's just a spare-time project though.

MassiveD

To the OP. I wouldn't because I already own a few top end hubs. I think an additionally reasonable question would be whether any of the people with opinions have ever bought premium hubs. Few people here seem that interested.

As far as the hub goes, the lacing pattern is standard, there are several ways of getting that kind of result, and they can work on any touring hub.

The super cassette hubs have to also offer improved axle performance, which yours may well, but it needs to be part of the pitch. And another weakness is that the shell on cassette hubs needs to be better than stock. The Phil, as you know, is heavy, and the White is Ti.

The market for this stuff is more MTB than Touring, and maybe also a little tandemish. The problem I see there is that your design works in favour of an if-it-breaks-you-can-fix-it thing, not so much an it won't break thing.

Some parts of the high end market also want high spoke counts. They don't seem to be necessary but some people like them nonetheless. To the extent you up the spoke count your little tab thingies will get smaller, and smaller.

I would have to see a few decades go by before I trusted those little tabs not to break. One place hubs break is when the holes tear out, so that could be a worry. Beefing them up would be a challenge since the fit of the spoke to hole is pretty specific.

I think it is wonderful what you are doing, I would love to see someone bring out some new touring specific hubs. So I hope you can make it work.

shelbyfv

Velo Orange has their Grand Cru Touring hub for $160. It comes apart w/o any tools at all. Available with 36 spoke drilling so probably spoke tension differences would not be a problem.

FatPow

Yeah I've seen that one, it's interesting. The only thing is what happens when you're in rural Vietnam and you break an axle or freehub? The parts aren't standard.

MassiveD

By the way, on the price thing. If you actually deliver a net advantage, I would consider the same pricing as the other hubs. Underselling makes a convincing case the real advantage is the price, not the feature set. I don't buy velo orange stuff because I know they are more into the non-functional elements than the functional. Like when they bring out an MAII clone without double eyelets. So in buying their stuff, you are fighting the fact that their Chinese suppliers don't know what they are doing, and that maybe Chris doesn't either, or more likely he is doing his own thing, which isn't an obsession with function on a touring bike. I have a lot of respect for Chris, he started CLC.

There has been the case made that the sturdier Shimano hubs (if such a thing still exists) are actually stronger than the boutique hubs. It is a forging vs. milling argument. Milled parts shine most when they are loaded with the linear grain of the billet, which isn't going to happen with a billet hub. So price wise, it may be the case that 35 dollar NOS LX hubs are actually stronger spoke wise than the boutique hubs at 300. So a 100 dollar boutique hub might send a mixed message if nobody believes it beats the 300 dollar hub, and the 30 dollar hubs are already good enough due to the fact that small hub makers adopt billet and cartridge because they can't afford what it cost to make a real forged hub with races.

Also, another problem in the touring space is what size you are making. I personally think the 9 or 10 speed compatible hubs are troubling as far as the rigging lines of the spokes go. So do you make a retro 7 or 8 hub? In which case you loose out on some of the market. But if you make a 9 or a 10, you have what is probably a badly designed hub for the space you are trying to occupy. Few companies can be like Phil and get it all out there at once.