Posted this in the short tours thread, but realize that I should start a new one, because I'm interested in advice from anyone who's done this.

My wife has given her blessing to the idea, which has me excited. I'm still trying to work the details, as I've never done any touring before (i've biked a lot, i've camped a lot, but never at the same time).

To add another little monkey-wrench, I want to bring my oldest boy (7) along. He's never ridden without training wheels (will work on that this spring to be sure), so I'm currently thinking about doing a loaded tour with racks/panniers on my bike, plus a trail-a-bike, and (if necessary) a small trailer behind that. I intend to use my Mongoose Switchback (pre wal-mart mongoose bike shop mountain bike) with semislick tires as it's better suited to being a trail-a-bike tractor than my commuter bike (/touring bike) (1983 Schwinn Voyageur SP).

The plan is to take a week to ride from my house (northern twin cities, MN) up to and along the length of the Willard Munger trail to Duluth MN. My wife and other kids would meet us at a hotel (with a pool) at the end and haul us home.

Before doing that, I'll definitely pack the bike and kid, and pedal to a nearby campground for an overnight test-run of myself, my son, and the chosen gear.

Am I crazy to even consider this? The route is approximately 170 miles.

Any suggestions for types of gear, foods, ways to make sure a kid has fun, etc would be appreciated. If this goes well I'll get to take the next son up next year too (he'll be 7 next summer).

jmilleronaire, The biggest factor is your son. Kids often become bored on any lengthy trip. Plan ahead for stops that'll interest him. Involve him in the planning stage to generate participation and to generate his interest for the adventure. Merge as many of your son's interests into trip as possible.

Brad

You'll need to definitely build up your son to sitting on a trail-a-bike for that long. He needs to be able to do an all-day trip without, well, doing what 7 year olds like to do "Daddy, I'm bored now..." Not to mention that you have to figure out how long is realistic to ride between breaks.

You can use a trail-a-bike with a rack and panniers and put a rack and panniers on a trail-a-bike, so you can hopefully get away with out pulling a trailer, too. Instead of camping, you can also consider hotels along the way.

It's not completely crazy, but it's not a slam dunk, either.

I appreciate the advice!

The trail-a-bike works with my rack with side panniers, but prevents using the top of the back rack completely.

I hadn't considered a rack on the trail-a-bike, I suppose with some trickery one could be made to fit there. Do you think adding that kind of weight to the far back would affect handling terribly?

I do know there are a lot of things along the trail that are interesting (*to me), the area has a pretty good history. Too bad there's no dinosaurs or cheetahs or sharks on the way! Getting him involved with the planning would certainly help. I'm kind of new to being Daddy (I adopted my two oldest when I married my wife 2 years ago).

I'll consider hotels too, but there's a big section of northern minnesota with parks but not much for cities/hotels.

Here's a good resource. https://www.familyonbikes.org/

You could also look into a front platform rack such as the Nitto Big rack sold by Rivendell, the Jandd Extreme front rack or the Surly Nice front rack. Old Man Mountain, too.

Read Joe Kurmaskie's "Mud,Sweat, and Gears"

Have fun!

Isn't this the same plot as "Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance"?

But anyhow it looks like about two hours of riding a day, so it's a camping trip where you bike and not a biking trip where you camp. And you will be making camp, striking camp, and preparing or procuring three meals a day. Whew! What's the kid going to do in the meantime? Be sure to give him a jackknife and a lighter so he can stay entertained. Honestly it sounds like a ton of fun. I don't remember much about our earlier road trips but at age 9-teens we did them all the time and I loved them. We did have the bikes in the camper and not the camper on the bikes...

if you are cycling for more than a few hours, the kid needs OPTIONS.

Tired: sit in a trailer
Not tired: pedal on the trailabike. (Put gear in the trailer.) or tow with a trail-gator-tow-bar
Tow bar also adds the option for the kid to pedal independantly.

Other options: old used tandem w. trailer. (If the kid is big enough to ride stoker.)

The limiting factor might not be the cycling at all--it might be the length of the camping trip--what's the longest he's done?

Having said all that--go for it!!

Can you get an appropriately sized tandem? An unbalanced child on a trail-a-bike will affect handling much more than an unbalanced child on a tandem.

Sounds great!

Another option that is popular in Europe is a variation of the Trail-a-Bike. It connects the youngster's bike to the tow vehicle. When the riding is safe, the kid is cut loose to do his/her independent riding. It will be a lot more interesting for him, if he is actually doing the riding. The hitch flips out of the way. It is really slick, and would be more fun for the kid. We see families touring with Trail-a-Bikes every year on our tours. On a tour last summer we saw one young man pushing his dad over the Canadian Rockies on a Trail-a-Bike.

It sounds like you will be riding a path most of the way so it should be ideal. With a little help from dad, doing 25 miles a day should not be a problem.


This family was out for long weekend tour with all the kids. If you are interested in the name of the enhanced Trail-a-Bike, my wife can dig it out of her journal. She talked to them about it for quite awhile.


Dad just passed me with his son pushing him up the hill.


Mom has the daughter who is using an enhanced Trail-a-bike. This family was out for much more than a short tour.

Doug64, That enhanced trail-a-bike is a great idea!

Brad

Wow that trip looks fun! I bet many memories were made. I'm more excited than ever to do this. Showed the boy the route and talked about biking and camping, now he is excited too.

As you might know, the Munger Trail is mostly out in the open, by which I mean there is no shade. This is especially the case at the southern end in the area where you will start - White Bear Lake, Hugo, etc. and continues on into Moose Lake and beyond.

Depending on other weather conditions that non-stop heat from the Sun can take a toll. I don't ride the Munger partly for that reason. When I go north from Twin Cities I go through Princeton, Little Falls, etc. and on up to Brainerd and then take the Paul Bunyan Trail to Bemidji. I prefer that route but I end up in International Falls, not Duluth.

As far as your other question, it depends on the 7 year old. Those of us who do not know your son can't give you an accurate answer as to how he will do on such a ride, but bradtx had good advice in my opinion.

You don't say how far he has ridden but the picture I get from your "never ridden without training wheels" description makes me say, with no additional information - Yes, you are crazy to even consider it. I would want to see some expressed desire from him to ride any time he gets the chance before I would put him in such a situation of your creation.

I like your idea of a short camping trip as a trial. Bunker Hills has decent accommodations and is close enough and, to my surprise, is often not crowded. The admission fee is waived if you arrive by bike. When I last checked a campsite was $14 a night.

I would also schedule a test ride to see over what distance he can maintain focus. Maybe down West River Road from the 169 bridge at least to the dam and then back. I consider that road pretty safe because of the good shoulder but you might want to ride on a trail. Good luck.

Another thought. You might say this response is too personal and please ignore this if it offends you.

I would ask myself why am I doing this or contemplating doing it. For whose pleasure or enjoyment. Yours? His? Your wife's?

My point is that if he has not asked to do this his negative feelings (if they occur) may find non-verbal, passive-aggressive expression during the exercise. Trying to be diplomatic here.

And one more thing. The only reason I feel safe on bike tours in the area you are considering these days is because of a strong focus on and attention to the task at hand. You should be safe on a trail but even a brief period of not focusing on the riding and the attendant conditions can increase the possibility of an unexpected event.

The Munger, like many trails, can be considered "boring" in the sense that it is an endless stream of what seems to be the same scenery and conditions over and over. If he becomes bored his attention may wander. If you were out for an hour that might be OK. If you are out for 3 days it could be a real problem. It could cause him to lose focus in a way that could be a problem. It is a ride but it is not like an amusement park ride.

Just trying to help. Good luck.

This is a post I made in another thread, but the concept works when introducing any new outdoor activity to a youngster, or anyone for that matter-- start slow, pick good weather, keep it fun. We have used this approach with our kids for skiing, backpacking , rock climbing, alpine climbing, winter camping and bike touring.

+1, to this approach. We started with a trail-a-bike when our first son was 4, nice for an hr or so. Not comfortable for either rider after a couple hrs. We found a lightly used tandem when he was 7, did lots of local riding. Then our first tour was the 5 Boro - which went well - but. It was a single day ride. Then we did a week long sagged tour, it is really hard for an 8 yo to sit on a bike that length of time. We stopped every hour, walked a few minutes, explored our surroundings. He went solo after a year on the tandem, he did not like the scenery from the navtgator's seat. The ride at that age, is really your kid's ride. The oldest is now in his twenties and still riding. Our soon to be 15 yo son has done 7 tours with us and looking forward to next summer's tour.

Done lots of touring/camping with my kids starting at about that age - KATY Trail, C&O Canal, road riding in Michigan Gr Rapids -> Mackinaw, etc. Can't say we ever tried a trip of that length as a first-year trip for any of the kids - mostly 2-3 nighters until around middle school, as I recall. At younger age certainly the trail thing is the way to go, rather than worrying about (and continually being the grumpy old man about) vehicular traffic safety. I was amazed at how suddenly my kids' road safety behaviors - checking over the left shoulder before crossing a street, etc - seemed natural only after taking Drivers' Ed in their mid-teens!

We never used the trail-a-bike thing, mostly because I felt their own bike could let them kinda do their own thing within the safe confines of the trail. I always had at least *some* kind of rack/panniers on the kid's bike to carry *some* of their own stuff, which I think gave them a feeling of pulling their own weight, plus the added pride of the "wow" factor when we chatted with non-cyclists at restaurants, campgrounds, etc.

I agree with the others' comments: boredom, not physical endurance skills, will be your greatest challenge. And besides time on the bike...170 miles/6 days = 30ish miles/day = 4-5 hours at kid's pace... and then what? So you gotta plan on bringing a collapsable fishing rod, or baseball gloves, or whatever he'll like to do in the off-bike time. I never found on-bike boredom was that big a problem (but no trail-a-bike experience, remember) with the distractions of watching for garter snakes or turtles or whatever crosses your trail, racing for the mile marker posts, planning what kind of ice cream we hoped to get at that next little town, whatever - but that's a kid-specific issue, too. Does he do well at home entertaining himself with pretend play or books, or does he need other stimulation?

58Kogswell's first point - who's agenda is this? - is certainly valid, but heck, we try to introduce our kids to all sorts of experiences they may or may not like (piano lessons, swim classes, Taekwondo) hoping a couple might stick & they'll find long-term enjoyment. If it doesn't go well, just add it to your long list of parental failures...

I started both of my sons on week-long tours when they each reached 6 years old. First when it was just one, on a TAB, then when it was both a TAB behind a tandem with my oldest as stoker. We Did the GAP & Allegheny Passage in 9 days this way (380 miles?) and even further across NY state on the Erie Canal. We used panniers on front & back of the tandem and panniers in the TAB too and were able to camp fully self supported. We really had no problems at all. Only cautions are that on longer rides some kids can fall asleep on the TAB so a back rest with a waist belt might be a good idea if that is a possible issue. Also, we make kid happiness the #1 priority over distance, etc. If they want to stop we stop. Sometimes less than a mile between stops. As kids get older (now my oldest is 13!) you will be able to get more distance between stops out of them. We also use a mileage reward program to encourage more distance between stops (ice cream after 20 miles, etc.). Also, we tour every year with 3 families with similar age kids and that way they are thoroughly entertained and never realize they ride 60 miles some days.

We have now done railtrail, road and international family tours. The kids are asking at Christmas where the next tour will be.

They are always going from hot to cold and back again so I start them each day in shorts with my arm warmers on their legs. Then when they get hot they can just slip off the warmers and tuck them in a pocket easily without having to change. Just as easy to put them back on when it gets cool in the shade around the next bend too. That saves a ton of time. Finding good quality bike shorts for little kids is a problem, but REI now carries some better quality ones i kids sizes. Many of the cheap ones sold online for kids are terrible with cheap foam rubber pads with crude seams inside that chafe quickly.

I run a seminar every year at the local REI store on bike touring with kids. If you PM me I'd be happy to send my presentation to you and answer any questions you have.

If you do the TAB, I highly recommend the Burley over the Adams as it is way more stable, durable and comfortable.

Also, get your son to kick the training wheels before you go! His improved balance will help you on the TAB...

We put all of our light but bulky stuff on the TAB rack. That way it looks like the little kid is carrying most of the stuff. The added weight on the TAB does give a swinging kid some extra inertia to throw you around with though, so be wary and do not but too much heavy stuff there. We do mainly sleeping bags back there, etc. Stacked up on the rack they actually provide a back rest for my youngest. Sadly on out tour this summer my oldest will now be riding his own bike, my little one moves up to the tandem and the TAB will stay at home.

Putting a rack on a TAB is no more difficult than putting one on a regular bike. You just have to watch heel clearance on the shorter wheelbase.

Go for it! You'll find that the major factor in your child's enjoyment is your own attitude. When we first set off with out twins, they were 8. We cycled across Eastern Oregon in the middle of summer (blech!). My husband and I worked very hard to keep them entertained - joking and laughing while we were riding, exploring bushes and ant piles when we took breaks. If you, as the parent, set the example that this is the best thing since sliced bread, chances are good your child will pick up on that and feel the same way.

I say this with a bit of experience touring with kids - my sons have cycled 27,000 miles through 15 countries now. Touring with kids is a blast!

My kids love being on the bike. Ages 7 and 9. We've done Madsen Bucket, Xtracycle, several different tandems. cheap trail-a-bike, expensive trail-a-bike (Burley)...

Never toured, though. I think that a Tandem with a kidback makes the most sense. There is also a large difference in weight and stability between the WeeRide and Burley trailabikes.

I have a trek trail-a-bike, a Wee-Ride co-pilot (less than $90 new), and an Adams tandem trail-a-bike. I'm very unimpressed with how the Adams hooks up to my bike as far as stability goes. The Wee-Ride is significantly more stable than the (MUCH) more expensive Adams.

Ditch the training wheels now and maybe even the pedals (turning it into a balance bike). When he's comfortable scooting around with no pedals, put 'em back on and he should be able to get riding in short order (if he's motivated).

The current thought is that training wheels are the work of the devil. I don't disagree with this sentiment.