I can buy all of that about the cgoab community, but looking at that same body of information I come to a different conclusion...

I have read and posted a lot on CGOAB starting in 2007 when I did my first coast to coast trip. My read of the run of posts, reviews, and journals there is that they have been mostly positive on Ortleib Panniers. I just don't see the issues you describe popping up all that much.

The reviews of the product were pretty positive. The one negative review I recall was complaining about the hardware and other issues and I think they specifically said that waterproofness was not the problem for them.

In the CGOAB forums the only mention of needing to add drain holes that I recall was actually someone who had Jannd panniers.

My personal experience is at least somewhat extensive with both waterproof and non waterproof and I have never experienced with anything like the problem you described. I similarly have not heard any of the scores of tourists that I met in campgrounds or on the road say that they had that kind of issues with waterproof panniers.

Both types have their advantages and disadvantages and which works best has more to do with how you prefer to pack than anything else. If you have problems with wet gear with either type bags, it has more to do with how you manage your packing than which type bags you use.

I have met quite a few tourists on the road and to be honest when the discussion turned to panniers they were pretty much universally happy with whatever type they were using. Neither camp complained about difficulty keeping stuff dry in their panniers.

My own personal experience includes a couple coast to coast trips, the majority of the Pacific Coast, the SC from San Diego to Reno, a ride from Kansas City to Santa Fe, and other tours. That is a long ways from making me one of the most experienced here, but it is a substantial enough resume that I think if I was going to find waterproof bags unsuitable I would have by now. I can say that I have never had water sloshing in my panniers or even and substantial dampness.

The bottom line is that various riders will have different packing preferences and different panniers will suit these different preferences.

I think we tend to get too wrapped up in some of these issues. I have seen folks using the cheapest walmart backpacks bolted to a plywood backing, kitty litter buckets, the cheapest panniers available, the most expensive and elaborate panniers, and everything in between. In all that diversity all of them made those diverse choices work pretty well. They may have made some allowances or taken extra care to make them work, but all of them could keep their gear pretty dry if they used care and good judgement. After using both I have a preference for single compartment waterproof, but could live with either.

That Gunflint bag looks pretty good. But I like the Carradice Nelson Longflap at 18 or 19 liters. I usually have a small enough amount in it that I do not need to use the extra length of the flap (long flap), but that extra volume is there for when we load up with groceries. That said, the photo of your Gunflint looked pretty good.

I have not seen the Carradice Camper Longflap (24 liter), but if I was looking for more volume I would likely pick that for the same reason, the flap can be adjusted for either a large load or a really really big load.

That is exactly why I use the Camper long flap for touring. The down side is that if you don't fill it up it tends to get floppy and so it either hangs over the edge of a rack or sags towards the tyre if you don't use a rack. Its not an issue with the smaller saddlebags, but the big ones really need the structure of being packed pretty full.

I've used the longflap on my Camper saddlebag to carry extra food and water and also my soft sided bike bag when I flew to England

I can only speak from my experience with Ortlieb panniers. Mine are 7 years old and have been used for more than 14 months of touring during that time. I also know several other people who also use Orlieb products. My wife has a pair of Orlieb panniers that have about the same touring mileage plus used as commuter bags. They just stay on her commuter bike and are used almost every day. I've not had or heard first hand of anyone having problems with leakage. On the contrary, I had an accident that looked like it caused some serious damage to my front pannier; it turned out to be cosmetic, and it is still waterproof.

Odor has never been a problem either.

The only problem I ever had with them was when I lost one of the little spacer clips on the mounting hooks. It still mounted securely, just rattled a little. I picked up a replacement at the next bike shop I ran into. We were riding through Germany at the time so getting Ortlieb parts were not an issue.

My right front pannier had a high speed encounter with a high curb. The damage is just cosmetic and the integrity of the bag is still good. Also, from first hand experience with 3 pairs of nylon codura panniers; I believe that an accident like this results in some pretty serious damage. A similar accident with the panniers I had prior to the Ortiebs is the reason I have Ortiebs today. The old ones were toast!

I'm a bit curious how it is that I got associated with the Ortlieb bags when I never even mentioned them in my post?

I have to admit the "longflap" is a plus to a saddlebag. Although the Gunflint has a nice network of compression tabs, it can be overloaded and a longer flap could be desirable. On the other hand, my experience working in and managing an office taught me that convenient space fills up. So I look upon it as a strategic trade off. In that respect, I guess, I'm a minimalist.

Marc

I'm sorry; it was not my intent to associate you with either the Ortlieb or anti-Ortlieb pannier factions. I should have used the generic term "waterproof". I do associate Orlieb panniers with waterproof which really shows my bias. Sloppy writing on my part.

When you say"In my readings on CGOAB it seems almost universally that water proof bags don't stay that way long and often times FILL with water and have to have drain holes put in them to get it back out, when waterproof and often get smelly without care", it doesn't seem unreasonable to mention reviews of, or experience with, Ortleib panniers, which are after all waterproof bags.