I'm not convinced that mashing is so bad for knees. The leg motion is more akin to running (a naturally evolved movement), and the pressure/impact is much less than running, neh?

I alternate sitting and standing going up steep hills, with one gear higher whilst standing.

Bicycling any which way is good for your knees I believe - though that is a bit of a sweeping statement, I admit, lol

If so, it's because of improper cleat positioning and not because of the mechanism to attach the feet per se. The same thing can happen with the older-style slotted cleats used with toe-clip pedals.

I have dialed in the cleat position on my SPD shoes and couldn't be happier on tour. Or any other riding I do.

I believe that there may be something to that, but blame it on poorly set up cleats. I believe that, in general, clipless is no danger to the knees if the cleat position and angle are carefully set up. I'd even go further and say that for many it might even reduce knee problems.

BTW, I also think that very little float is needed if the cleats are set up properly.

I altered my Touring shoes to work well with my traditional toe clip pedals , to have some float, and fit my feet loosely with room for a comfortable Insole.

so the circulation of 'my humors' to my feet, was better. and the toe strap and the slot inthe shoe sole Kept my foot on the pedal with out a tight shoe..

Which with clipless systems, snug shoes seem needed , or you pull your foot out of the shoe too easily ..


I have SPuD pedals, Shoes, and a pair of Sandals .. just havent used them on my long tours . which I did at a rather relaxed pace, any way..

I agree that regular riding is good for knees, but I disagree about mashing, my skinny knees really dont like it and reducing the pressure by reasonable to higher cadence really is easier on my knees.

I like to tour in my keen sandals, YRMV. I pair of foot wear weighs less. I also like to move my feet to different positions on the pedals sometimes.

Well I split the difference. I use clipless on the right and platform on the left. I like being able to pull the pedal up at stops, but also don't want t have to unclip on the left when I stop. So a pair of A530 pedals works well. The only bad thing is that in the rain I sometimes slip off the left pedal.....who want to ride in rain anyway. Interestingly, I only ever get soreness in my left knee, and then only when I ride my single speed and mash up hills at using 67".

In the middle of a tour, it may not be a question of "want".

I'm a huge clipless fan and have been since clipless first came out but, as I mentioned earlier, I did my cross country with toe clips and straps. It worked just fine. Maybe I would have been more efficient with clipless.

Still after reading the arguments on this thread, I'm thinking I'm sticking with toe clips and straps or, more likely, try out power grips. I just like wearing (and riding) in my hiking shoes; for my 2d pair of shoes, I'll bring crocs or tevas.

People had knee problems before clipless and after clipless.

I have been using clipless pedals for over ten years, but I am not certain they make a difference. I enjoy the sensation of "at-one-ness" with the pedals, and that's the reason I continue to use them. But I cannot tell whether they make it easier to climb long hills, increase my all-day comfort, or reduce knee problems.

When I need to make a quick getaway -- for example, when a car is approaching from the rear and coming too close for my comfort -- I am fairly certain clipless pedals help me accelerate more quickly. But I am not convinced I can sustain the extra power output longer than a few seconds. Maybe a 20-something racer can do this, but I am an almost 60 cycletourist!

I often unclip when I am descending hills. At those moments, I don't appreciate the sense of at-one-ness with the pedals, and feel "locked in" to the bike in a way that makes me nervous.

Because of this nervousness, I can foresee ditching clipless pedals in the coming years. it's been a long time since I fell or wiped out due to my inability to unclip in time. If it were to happen again, it would not take much to consider giving up on them. For now, though, my riding motto continues to be, "Don't panic. Unclip!"

you are putting yourself at more risk of a bad incident by unclipping on downhills, your feet are at risk of slipping off the pedals if you hit bumps and you are taking away the most important part of bike control--being able to stand, having pedals parallel to the ground and let the bike move around if it needs to--and to repeat, with the great risk of not having your feet properly attached to pedals, one slip and you could be in a whole mess of trouble.

I fear nothing I write will convince you of this, and from your comments you are not comfortable on a bike that moves around under you, but sincerely, unclipping on downhills and not getting your bum off the seat to allow the bike to move around under you is putting you at danger of worse than what you imagine.
I also realize that if you are uncomfortable with this stuff at your age, it isnt going to change, but at least try staying clipped in, getting your behind off the seat and get a bit of a feel for the bike moving under you. Even try some little tests of locking the rear wheel on a slight dirt downhill at slowish speeds while out of the seat but clipped in, just to get an idea of the feel.

My comments are sincere here, it really does make me cringe to think of you unclipping on downhills. Think of it this way, even riding on the road in the city, there are situations like being surprised by a pothole or an object on the road where the absolute safest thing to do is to get off the seat, and lift the front a bit and just let the bike bash around under you--being clipped in is just so much safer because while all this is happening, your feet/foot are not going to slip off the pedals which can lead to all kinds of disaster.
Being solidly braced/attached at the pedals, off the seat and a good grip on the bars is the best position to deal with an uneven surface or obstacle, as well as any traction issues going on.

"Putting a foot down" isn't really something you want to do, unless of course you are at the speed to about to stop.

I realize you didnt really specify at what speeds you do this and in what conditions, but my wife does the same thing and it makes me cringe when she does it also.
cheers

+1

My wife has a completely torn ACL in her left knee(she has good knee stability because of her very strong quads), and a minor leg length difference. Her Physical Therapist, who specializes in bike fitting, said, "properly set up clipless pedals are often better for your knees than a non-restrained foot". That is also assuming that the rest of the fit is correct. She has about 15,000 touring miles since she tore her ACL, and has not had any significant problems. Her seat height was critical when she was using Look pedals that have 9 degrees of float. Even with that much float, there is a sweet spot where no lateral resistance is felt. This is where you usually position your foot when the cleats are properly set up. Actually I did not use the float. If I felt that lateral resistance, I'd adjust my cleats trying to hit that sweet spot. About 3 years ago we switched all our bikes over to SPD pedals with less float, because the cleats are more durable, without any problems. She has to wear a knee brace for skiing or hiking, but biking isn't a problem.

Yeah, I have knee problems regardless of the pedal system. For commuting and touring I prefer sneakers and MKS Lambdas. My feet don't slip even in the rain unless I hit a big bump unexpectedly. It's just so nice to be able to hop off the bike and walk in comfortable shoes and to not deal with hauling another pair of non-bike shoes. On road and especially mountain day rides I like to clip in for better bike control. If I learned how to bunny hop with flat pedals I'd probably ditch clipless altogether.

I tour with clipless. Last tour I used 5Ten shoes with SH56 blocks. Did a lot of walking too, including climbing 1500m of vertical in one day up an active volcano. My feet went fine, but the shoes didn't, one of the hard plastic soles broke in half. I've replaced them with a pair of Shimano MT91s, even though 5Ten gave me a new pair under warranty. The MT91s are full hiking boots but with cleats, I can walk around all day in them I only take one pair of shoes, to deal with wet feet I carry a pair of English made Sealskinz socks that I wear around with wet shoes after riding. The socks get thrown in with the washing. Feet stay dry and warm and doesn't matter that the shoes are wet. I also wear them with a pair of thongs (flip flops to the rest of the world) around camp if the grass is wet.
Mind you I grew up with toe clips and straps and needing to keep a cast iron shoe last to re-nail the blocks onto the soles of my leather shoes. Now that is a zero float system. Makes me laugh when people talk about struggling to unclip from SPD pedals. You need to try and get out of a proper toe clip system in a hurry to see what real foot retention is. Anticipation was everything and if that failed learning how to topple gracefully was important, because there was no such thing as getting out at the last second. Mind you there's no graceful way to flop around on the ground like a beached fish trying to undo the straps and twist your feet out.

I tried thongs on my feet once, but the lacy parts and the elastic got torn up right away.
I've never had a problem unclipping out of clipless pedals. Double strapped clipped quill pedals yes.

Use of platforms/clips more easily accommodate experimenting with a midfoot riding position, which was my reason for abandoning clipless and I won't be going back.