Dave Cutter

Apparently... you don't have a wick handy to look at. Wicks and wicking does not require fire.

You're right. Cotton absorbs. And cotton is not the first choice for brutal winter weather. But whether you wear cotton on not... activity in cold weather requires active moisture management.

Dave Cutter

Fine wools have been available for HUNDREDS of years... nothing NEW and/or improved about wool.

My information is from less than 10 years ago (I am retired now). In surveys performed then... 70% of wool users interviewed reported mild to severe itch from wool. There has been much debate about inherent allergic reactions to wool fibers. Not something wool producers have much desire to pursue.

Dave Cutter

Cotton has worked well (WITH BICYCLES?) since 1850?

Cotton has worked well for more than six thousand years. And... very likely will still be grownand used 6K years from today. There are many circumstances of course where other fabrics... synthetics included... work better.

Synthetic polymers known generically as aliphatic polyamides or nylons have been around since before WW2. Garment technology has never marched. At best it crawls along.

shipwreck

Everything depends on the environment you will be cycling through as well as your personal comfort zones.
I would only take cotton on a very dry and hot tour, such as the southwestern US. I grew up there, and cotton works pretty well. A good jacket is nice for the evenings though.

In the South, or anywhere the humidity is higher, I cant stand it. It does take a long time to dry. I have had some shirts get a little mildewed before I got to a washing machine and dryer(in south Florida).
But then, I sweat a lot more than most, so the guy next to me can be just slightly damp, and I am literally dripping. I tried to tour wearing nothing but cotton shirts and ended up buying some crap technical shirts at a WM. And that was just through MO and IL.

Then, most synthetic technical fabrics require washing in borax, vinegar, and detergent after a couple days on me to get the locker room smell out, even with nightly hand washing. I like the feel better than cotton in terms of wicking, but my body chemistry just does not play well with it. I do have some synthetic soccer jerseys that I like to use for shorter trips. They get washed every night, in a sink or worn in the shower if possible.

Wool works for me. It never really itches me, even cheap wool sweaters. I wear regular wool sweaters when winter riding, and even when wet with sweat it keeps me warm. I like it in the summer because I usually don't mess with a rain jacket while wearing it, just let it get wet, unless its really coming down. Took a light wool jersey on my last trip and it turned out to be almost all I wore. My next tour will feature wool jerseys pretty much exclusively, for on and off bike activity's. There will be a mix of humidity's and temps.

As to winter temps, as most here have said, cotton sucks. It was about 20 degrees the other day and I was out chopping wood for a few hours, and accidentally wore some heavy cotton flannel shirts under my jacket, and was miserable, even with layers to mess with. The next day I thought ahead and wore my wool tops, sweated like crazy, but stayed warm.

If wool is a fashion statement, then that's great. It means that there will be more options to choose from as the market caters to people who don't actually need it, but want it. And who knew that all those farmers and fishermen in cold weather areas have been so stylish for all these years. They just thought they were being practical.

nun

I'm asking if all the claims made by the folks at Smartwool and Ibex for the excellent wicking qualities of merino wool are lies as you say wool "does not wick."
Maybe the merino wool companies are playing a bit fast an loose with the definition of wicking.

Dave Cutter

No, no, no. Your talking about advertisements aren't you? You mean you believe all advertisements?

Then explain to me the science that allows for a fabric to both stagnate [insulate] and wick [Capillary action] or move moisture? No offense... but it's ether/or... you can't get both.

Some fabrics like synthetics (and even wool to a point) don't adsorb moisture. So sweat will pass through the fabric after it's reached it's saturation point. I like the skin-tight latex enhanced underarmor shirts as a base layer. Sweat passes through those like a bucket of water thrown through a screen door. But they can't/don't wick the moisture. So I can be wet in the pit area... and dry other places.

Wool will somewhat wick to a point of saturation. So if your sweating at the pits... you arms, sides, and or parts in the area will get wet as the wool fabric saturates with sweat. But it won't wick to the surface for evaporation.

Wicking fabrics allow us to distribute moisture over a larger area while we unbutton/unzip and allow air to evaporate away the wetness. Some synthetics do wick and because of the size of the surface area... if worn in layers and properly ventilated can be pretty dry.

Not that I always get it right... where my clothing matches the weather. I've returned home cold more than I'd like to... and I've even returned wet from over dressing. That's why.... for me... adding a rear rack and truck bag has been my best accessory. I can take extra clothing items (and hand warmers) and have them handy if needed. Plus I have a place to store any clothing I find I don't really need and take off.

I own, use, and like, all the fabrics! I believe the correct fabric/garment depends on the weather conditions the day it's worn. Not what some famous pro wore while on the tour. I support change and follow trends. But as of yet... there is no one miracle fabric that does everything it's fans says it does. Or one fatal fabric we should be fearful of.

BigAura

The processes are modern not the sheep.

Ten years ago was 2005. Please post a link to your survey. Thanks.

Tourist in MSN

Touring I only bring synthetic materials, or in some cases socks that may contain some wool. (Exception, I often have some cotton bandanas, but those are not clothing.)

Riding around home, almost always wear 100 percent cotton tee shirts that are a high visibility yellowish green color.

Touring, I want stuff that dries quickly when I do sink laundry in the campground sink, that is why I avoid cotton. I have a few shirts and one tee shirt that I might bring on a tour that have a cotton blend, but those are shirts that I know will dry quickly so I am willing to take them along.

mm718

I wear wool every day. Zero itch. I've never heard anyone report itching when talking about bicycle specific clothing made out of newer wool.

staehpj1

While we are asking for citations, maybe you could post some links that show that recent improvements in wool processing has significantly improved the product. I may be wrong, but I thought that the main difference in the merino wool that is so often touted as being so good was the fact that it was from the particular breed of sheep that it is named for and not that there was anything special or new about the processing.

FWIW, In my own experience I have not found anything all that special about wool, modern or otherwise. At least for some folks, it does a good job at being comfortable in a variety of conditions, but IMO is not substantially better than good synthetic garments in that regard. I did not find it held up especially well and also did not find the no-stink claim to be true in my usage. Wool is slow to dry and heavy when it soaks up a lot of water. That makes it most suitable for thin layers.

Then there is the cost... You might be able to get good deals now and then at a thrift store, but you pay very high prices for most new merino garments. I have not found that for me its properties make it worth the premium prices it demands.

Machka 

Technology removes the itch factor from wool | The Australian

(If that link doesn't work ... type 'Technology removes the itch factor from wool' into Google and you should be able to find the article from The Australian)


I have actually seen and touched some of the fine and superfine merino wool fabrics.


Smitten is one of the companies that sells it, and I have had to check the label to see if the garments are indeed 100% merino wool. It is beautiful fabric ... so soft.
Smitten~merino - Buy super fine merino wool clothing, thermals, outdoor, sportswear, dresses, and more from Tasmania, Australia


I've also had a look at Hedrena products (this past weekend as a matter of fact) ... and I thought their T-shirts were a blend, but nope, 100% merino.
Australian Made Merino Wool Clothing - HEDRENA

nun

+1

Wool soaks up sweat, is heavy, expensive and the merino I've bought is not hardwearing. It's only plus is it that really fine merino feels nice and it will keep you warm even when wet. Cotton is also bulky and a disaster if it gets cold in the wet. So synthetics are the winner for me in just about all categories.

mm718

Thanks for your sharing your experience with cotton in humid conditions. As I said above I don't sweat all that much but if I was touring in humid conditions I might bring a cotton shirt and a technical shirt in case cotton didn't work out. Thanks also for your comments on wool. I'd actually prefer wool (comfort, less odor) but between the high cost and lower durability it's not all that practical for me.

Thanks everyone for your comments. Interesting discussion as usual! My questions about cotton were in the context of summer touring but the warning about the dangers of cotton in cold temps bears repeating.

MassiveD

I wear cotton t-shirts all year long because they are tolerably fashionable and cost about 5 bucks. Yesterday I was wearing a t-shirt with a pile jacket over it for skiing, skating, and snowshoeing. It got pretty cold on one lake crossing. Big deal. Been at core temperature 86F, and it takes a lot more than a wet t-shirt. On an outward bound basis, there are probably hipsters dying in cotton, just because they bought the BS that they would die in it. There is a big difference between optimal outdoor wear, and what is necessary. Maybe on Everest technical base layers are a necessity. When I used to go ice climbing it was certainly more versatile to wear Goretex over polypro. But I don't bother for normal activities. Suit yourself and wear whatever your sense of billboard style and wallet will allow. Most cyclist look idiotic, but that seems to be half the fun.

Mr IGH

Ouch, someone needs their morning (mourning?) coffee! I buy my hipster poly tees off of amazon for $15 per, they last at least 3x longer than a cotton tee. The colors don't fade, the fabric doesn't sag, I look snappy!

BigAura

The word processes may not have been a good choice. I was referring to the soft weaves that are totally different from the wools that I used in the old-days. I can personally attest that merino wool is non-itchy and have never heard anyone complain of itchiness from modern merino. I also can attest to the anti-stink properties of merino wool FAR surpasses that of any synthetic or cotton. Additionally it is excellent in a variety of temperatures versus any other material for which I'm familiar. I will concede that it is expensive and doesn't last as long as quality synthetics. Here a video from Icebreaker (yes they have a vest interest, but nothing in it contradicts any of my first hand experiences) that explains their merino:

staehpj1

Thanks for the link. After a quick read of that it doesn't sound to me as if the technology cited actually makes the fabric any softer. What it sounds like is that it measures the prickliness and allows grading it. It looks to me kind of like the EN ratings for sleeping bags in that it doesn't improve the product directly but does allow quantifying the quality being measured so that you know what you are buying. I am sure that is probably a good thing, but it isn't clear to me that the process of making the fabric is anything new.

It is interesting to note that, according to the article, the Aussie CSIRO meter found the Kiwi based, expensive, and highly touted IceBreaker garments not up to snuff.

When it comes down to it there are lots of factors in these choices. For some the merino stuff may be well worth the cost. I have not found it to have enough advantage for me to choose it if it cost the same as my synthetic tees. At $50 and up for an IceBreaker or similar tee it is a tough sell IMO.

Dave Cutter

Cool antidotal information is always nice.

Dave Cutter

Sorry... I didn't bring that unpublished data home with me when I retired (there were TONS of data I didn't bring home). Nor do I any longer maintain server space for my hobby use (I used to) to upload data so you can see it in an HTML format (since you seem to trust that format over this format). And... I am not real big on playing "link battles" (or candy crush) on-line.

Besides.... what difference would it make to you? If you don't experience itch. Are you implying that you would avoid buying wool products because it makes your friends itchy? Or... is it that since the "in" people that lead trends and fashion "like" wool... then it's OK for us regular people to like it too? Or should we pretend not to feel the itch because then we might be exposed as un-cool? I mean really... what's the point?

I've been to/in the factories (called mills). The processes hadn't change ether. at least back then they hadn't.

Unless you know of some new special secret way to process wool that I am unaware of. I would enjoy reading your explanation of how that "new process" is performed or what the name of the new fangled de-itch machine is. Or who manufactures this machine.... or what new patent owns this process.

Many years ago (25-30?) the (fashion) industry introduced the no shrinking wool garments. When I asked at the mills how that process worked they explained that the vendors that ordered the fabrics merely bought poly wool blends that were mostly polyester. then with the natural shrinkage reduced (because of fabric content) "called it" a name that was undefined by industry standards.

Sort of like the "wrinkle free" cotton from a few years ago! Wrinkle free... is not as term that is used in the "wrinkle grading charts".

I myself... really like wool. I've worn wool for decades. My father and grandfather wore wool (that makes us really cool?). None of us have felt compelled to read a Vogue Magazine to know what we liked or to be able to tell how it performed. I just don't see this ancient garment material as some new miracle product.

djb

I have a couple of wool tops and use them a fair amount, biking and skiing, no real itch issues that are a problem and I do like how they dont smell like polypro after the same amount of time being used.

Dave Cutter

OK I get it. Now you can afford to buy better wool garments. Great! It is true... better stuff is... well... better.

The video confuses me! It clearly states that capillary action causes wool to wick moisture to the air. So I took a swatch of fine wool to my laboratory. OK... I took my wool coat into the kitchen.... and I just don't see the wicking. How can this be?!?!?!? It says right there on the YouTube video that wool wicks sweat!

We all know full well that EVERYTHING on the Internet is fact . So apparently Newton was some fraudster that couldn't be exposed at the time of his writings... because there was no Internet. I am now totally confused on the subject! My own tests and decades of experiences would force me to disregard the truth as seen by my own eyes (while watching an animated Youtube demonstration). How can I not believe my own eyes!?!?!? Yet my eyes see one thing in my kitchen (I mean... lab) and yet another thing on a Youtube marketing video.

I used to ask myself in these cycling-confusing times.... WWLD? But since "L" is now a disgraced, de-medaled, ex-public figure.... I find myself totally lost and confused. What celebrity do I look to for the wisdom I need here???

I think I will just surrender my point..... to public opinion, political correctness, and proper fashion standing. I agree completely wool is a new miracle fabric and cotton (the fabric of death that is killing people AND the planet) should be banned from Earth and replaced with hemp based fabrics.

Please accept my comments with the humor intended.

shipwreck

Just remember that that was the experience of a rider who can lose up to 12 pounds of water weight over a century ride, even while drinking liters and liters of liquid. I sweat a lot!

All the argument is silly. I for one am glad that I allow personal experience to dictate the gear I choose, what I choose it for, and how I use it. Good luck.

Leebo

So, back to the OP's question. I have brought on tour a nice seersucker short sleeve shirt and worn it with good results. Unbuttoning is nice and cooling. Not too clammy as well. I also like thin merino wool base layers. Best for wicking and comfort in a wide range of temps. I, too have many kinds of tech shirts as well. The merino wool is from a different breed of sheep. Not itchy. Works well, YRMV. For those of you still thinking that all wool is the same, try a nice merino wool( or 80%) blend base layer. Game changing. I like the Patagonia stuff. They come in 3 or 4 different thicknesses. Ibex, Minus 33, and Smartwool are some others. They all can't be wrong.

mm718

Thanks, Leebo. I was thinking that the one thing I would miss about bike jerseys is the zipper but a seersucker short sleeve is yet another way to go--nice and light and lots of ventilation. If wool were more durable and more affordable it would probably be my first choice.

Doug64

Not too many years ago a lot of us wore wool shorts and wool jerseys year-round, there was probably a good reason for that However, those were the days our shorts had real chamois liners, and our shoes had real cleats!