Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area Looking to enter into the realm of track racing? Want to share your experiences and tactics for riding on a velodrome? The Track Cycling forums is for you! Come in and discuss training/racing, equipment, and current track cycling events.

Dolan DF4 Dropout Issue

Old 10-30-17, 08:39 AM
  #1  
rickbuddy_72
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Michigan, on the lake, 60 miles WNW of Chicago as the crow flies, or 90 miles if the crow walks.
Posts: 62

Bikes: Dolan DF4, BH Ultralight, 1974 Schwinn Paramount Track, Trek Alpha 1000, Trek 730, Miyata 930 affixed to a Brian Wind Trainer

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Dolan DF4 Dropout Issue

I'd heard about it from another fellow who owned a DF4, wanting to know if I had experienced the problem.

I'd only recently bought the bike and hadn't experienced the issue. I asked the guy if, along with his bike, he had gotten the warranty notice on the dropouts. I found a small note in the materials that warned that if I did not back off the rear dropout adjustment screws once I'd aligned and tightened down the rear wheel then my warranty would be voided. He told me he had seen no such notice. So is this how Dolan is addressing the issue? I'm not 100% sure, but it looks like it.

As for the seat post issue. My memory recalls a warning from them to be careful tightening the seat post bolt to spec. I'd read enough carbon fiber horror stories about the effect of over-torqued bolts that I didn't touch to post until I took delivery of a Shimano Pro torque wrench. I found my bolt was under-torqued a bit, so I removed the post, wiped things down inside and out, reapplied the carbon paste and torqued to spec. I have had no problems since (knock on carbon).

I hope this helps,

Rick
rickbuddy_72 is offline  
Old 10-30-17, 09:29 AM
  #2  
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,265
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1225 Post(s)
Liked 20 Times in 14 Posts
What torque spec did they give you on the seatpost?

And there have been reports of dropouts spreading, but it seems to be a bigger issue for some than others. There were also reports that Dolan was going to beef up, but also shorten, the dropouts. Any chance you have the new version?
topflightpro is offline  
Old 10-30-17, 09:56 AM
  #3  
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,575
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1205 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
What torque spec did they give you on the seatpost?

And there have been reports of dropouts spreading, but it seems to be a bigger issue for some than others. There were also reports that Dolan was going to beef up, but also shorten, the dropouts. Any chance you have the new version?
+1

rickbuddy, any chance you can post pics of your dropouts and/or transcribe the exact wording of the notice?

My hunch is the same as topflightpro's, that you have a newer DF4 with the revised dropout.

I haven't heard a definitive explanation of the spreading issue, but I've seen it in person. My guess is that when chainring/cog combinations put the wheel's axle at the end of the offending dropouts, the combination of rider weight, the added leverage of being further away from the fulcrum, and the bumps that happen on the track cause the upper bar of the dropout to be bent upwards, spreading it away from being parallel to the lower.

As topflightpro mentions, they address this with the updated DF4 by making the dropout arms shorter (reducing the lever arm length) as well as beefing it up...and maybe giving themselves a loophole to not fulfill warranties or issue refunds by including that note. I've never heard instructions state that the tension set screws be moved off of the axle. If they are off of the axle, what good are they? If during a standing start, my wheel moves forward because the set screw is off of the axle, then my wheel will be cocked to the size and tire will seize against the chain stay. It sucks that they suggest you do that.
carleton is offline  
Old 10-30-17, 11:26 AM
  #4  
Poppit
Senior Member
 
Poppit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 250
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
15-17 Nm for the seatpost and use paste
Poppit is offline  
Old 10-30-17, 11:46 AM
  #5  
rickbuddy_72
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Michigan, on the lake, 60 miles WNW of Chicago as the crow flies, or 90 miles if the crow walks.
Posts: 62

Bikes: Dolan DF4, BH Ultralight, 1974 Schwinn Paramount Track, Trek Alpha 1000, Trek 730, Miyata 930 affixed to a Brian Wind Trainer

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
+1

rickbuddy, any chance you can post pics of your dropouts and/or transcribe the exact wording of the notice?
Yes, I will work on that. Might take a bit.

My hunch is the same as topflightpro's, that you have a newer DF4 with the revised dropout.
I suspect the same. Particularly after seeing that warranty note on the dropouts. I will try to find the paper, as well as the seat post spec. To the best of my recollection the spec is 5nm.

If they are off of the axle, what good are they? If during a standing start, my wheel moves forward because the set screw is off of the axle, then my wheel will be cocked to the size and tire will seize against the chain stay. It sucks that they suggest you do that.
Ah, this is where I get to be the graybeard. I have a 1974 Paramount I raced back in the Dream Time when my power was much, much higher. It has no alignment screws in the dropouts. We simply aligned the wheel as best we could and hoped everything stayed straight as we tightened down the back axle. If we pulled the wheel out of alignment then it meant we hadn't tightened things down correctly. Doing this back in the day and you'd get a ribbing from the other racers.

Even backing off the screw tension I find the screws very useful as they keep the wheel aligned as I'm bolting down the rear axle.

It may take a bit

Rick
rickbuddy_72 is offline  
Old 10-30-17, 11:48 AM
  #6  
rickbuddy_72
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Michigan, on the lake, 60 miles WNW of Chicago as the crow flies, or 90 miles if the crow walks.
Posts: 62

Bikes: Dolan DF4, BH Ultralight, 1974 Schwinn Paramount Track, Trek Alpha 1000, Trek 730, Miyata 930 affixed to a Brian Wind Trainer

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks, Poppit!

Originally Posted by Poppit View Post
15-17 Nm for the seatpost and use paste
I don't remember easily. Now, I need to go find my paperwork for the bike.

Rick
rickbuddy_72 is offline  
Old 10-30-17, 12:19 PM
  #7  
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,265
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1225 Post(s)
Liked 20 Times in 14 Posts
Originally Posted by Poppit View Post
15-17 Nm for the seatpost and use paste
That's why I was asking. From what I hear, people who actually torque to spec don't have the same post slipping issue as others. At the same time, it's nearly unheard of to torque a seatpost that much, so I am not surprised many have slipping issues. (I"ve even heard to go to as much as 19nm.)
topflightpro is offline  
Old 10-30-17, 12:31 PM
  #8  
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,575
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1205 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by rickbuddy_72 View Post
Ah, this is where I get to be the graybeard. I have a 1974 Paramount I raced back in the Dream Time when my power was much, much higher. It has no alignment screws in the dropouts. We simply aligned the wheel as best we could and hoped everything stayed straight as we tightened down the back axle. If we pulled the wheel out of alignment then it meant we hadn't tightened things down correctly. Doing this back in the day and you'd get a ribbing from the other racers.

Even backing off the screw tension I find the screws very useful as they keep the wheel aligned as I'm bolting down the rear axle.
I think the mating between steel dropouts and steel wheel nuts can be very good. Same with titanium dropouts with steel wheel nuts.

The problem comes with aluminum dropouts (inserts) and steel wheel nuts. The aluminum may let the axle nut slide under heavy torque. This was an issue with the one of the iterations of the DF3. I think the DF3 saw 3 different styles of dropouts before they moved to the DF4.

Also, it's my understanding that the screws aren't to be used for setting the chain tension (even though they are called "chain tensioners"). The wheel is set by hand (as you describe above) and once set, the screws are pushed against the axle to maintain tension as a security measure. So, the more descriptive term might be "Chain Tension Maintain-ers".

To further express why I prefer that method. I've tried setting the tension using screws then tightening the bolts and I've had odd things happen because the geometry changes slightly when the bolts clamp and move the dropouts closer together.

I've never had issues doing it the way I described above.

That being said, I've never had to use tensionsers with my Tiemeyers (ti dropouts), TK1 (ti dropouts) or my Snyder (steel dropouts). I did have to use them with the LOOK 496 and Dolan DF3. The DF3 did not have integrated tensioners. So I had to use BMX "lolipop" tensioners which were a pain in the butt.
carleton is offline  
Old 10-30-17, 12:51 PM
  #9  
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,575
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1205 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
That's why I was asking. From what I hear, people who actually torque to spec don't have the same post slipping issue as others. At the same time, it's nearly unheard of to torque a seatpost that much, so I am not surprised many have slipping issues. (I"ve even heard to go to as much as 19nm.)
Small, single value torque wrenches retail for as little as $20USD. The $400 OEM bike rack for my old Audi came with one. Maybe it's in Dolan's best interest to ship their $1,700 bike with one? I'm sure that they can get them for even less than $20. That might save them a lot of drama and serve the customer better as well.

Random example from the internet:

carleton is offline  
Old 10-30-17, 01:03 PM
  #10  
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,265
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1225 Post(s)
Liked 20 Times in 14 Posts
Not a bad idea. But the frames only go for about $1450, shipped nowadays. The pound has lost a lot of value to the dollar recently.
topflightpro is offline  
Old 10-31-17, 07:43 AM
  #11  
queerpunk
aka mattio
 
queerpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,502
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 304 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
That warranty notice sounds like a dodge. As Carleton mentions, the trackends (not dropouts - come on, we're trackies) bend because they're cantilevered backwards from the seatstays, and, if there's weight going down on the saddle, it's force on the axle pushing the top arm of the trackend upward.

i mean, look at how thin and spindly that is!

the revised trackends are shorter with a lot more carbon (i assume - could just be metal painted consistent with the carbon it's molded into) above them. should serve to reinforce it, but removes some usable trackend space. Really the best thing for Dolan to do would be to have the seatstay come down on TOP of the trackend, rather than forward of it.
queerpunk is offline  
Old 10-31-17, 07:51 AM
  #12  
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,575
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1205 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
....the trackends (not dropouts - come on, we're trackies)
I know. I know. Sooooorrrryyyyy



Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
...Really the best thing for Dolan to do would be to have the seatstay come down on TOP of the trackend, rather than forward of it.
Yup. Like this:



I've always wondered why no other bike manufacturers have adopted that style. Is it a patent thing?
carleton is offline  
Old 10-31-17, 08:32 AM
  #13  
queerpunk
aka mattio
 
queerpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,502
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 304 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
most do, in some capacity. the BT is a little different in that it curves and comes down to the trackend nearly vertical. most frames don't have that curve, but the outer edge of the seatstay intersects the trackend near the rearmost part. to wit:



queerpunk is offline  
Old 10-31-17, 08:39 AM
  #14  
rickbuddy_72
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Michigan, on the lake, 60 miles WNW of Chicago as the crow flies, or 90 miles if the crow walks.
Posts: 62

Bikes: Dolan DF4, BH Ultralight, 1974 Schwinn Paramount Track, Trek Alpha 1000, Trek 730, Miyata 930 affixed to a Brian Wind Trainer

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Here is my track end. It seems there is a lot more carbon fiber material surrounding this one than others I've seen. I've written to Dolan about the adjuster bolt directions because I've misplaced them.

Rick

rickbuddy_72 is offline  
Old 10-31-17, 08:44 AM
  #15  
Poppit
Senior Member
 
Poppit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 250
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Had this from Dolan some time ago
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
DF4instruction.pdf (219.5 KB, 20 views)
Poppit is offline  
Old 10-31-17, 08:55 AM
  #16  
queerpunk
aka mattio
 
queerpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,502
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 304 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Well there's a curiosity. Are they saying that the trackends splay because people use the adjusters and don't actually tighten the wheel's nuts?!

queerpunk is offline  
Old 10-31-17, 09:00 AM
  #17  
rickbuddy_72
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Michigan, on the lake, 60 miles WNW of Chicago as the crow flies, or 90 miles if the crow walks.
Posts: 62

Bikes: Dolan DF4, BH Ultralight, 1974 Schwinn Paramount Track, Trek Alpha 1000, Trek 730, Miyata 930 affixed to a Brian Wind Trainer

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Oh, I screwed up.

It's a good thing you asked me to find the instructions, carleton!

My bad. I apologize to everyone. I remembered the instructions wrong. I'm doing a bad, bad thing with easing off the adjuster bolt after tightening. I've been so confused with my bi-polar depression lately. It's hard to think right with it. Riding in sleet, rain, snow and wind yesterday, I'm fine. Thinking, not so good.

Here is what Dolan said about my screw up (fortunately, the season was near over by the time I took delivery and I hadn't ridden enough to do damage). As noted in the Dolan reply, my track end is a newer model.

"This is a newer version of the dropout. We haven't updated the picture from the instructions when they were first written but they remain the same.

I'm not sure where you will have read about backing the adjuster screws off as we wouldn't advise this. The adjuster screws are there so that the wheel cannot move forward and so that you don't have to tighten the track nuts on the rear wheel as much. What we have seen in the past is people not using the adjuster screws or not having them flush with the wheel axle and therefore having to over tighten the wheel causing the dropouts to spread/splay. "

So you can see, I remembered bad. I hope I didn't mislead anybody and if I did, I apologize.

Here are the Dolan Instructions:

rickbuddy_72 is offline  
Old 10-31-17, 09:03 AM
  #18  
rickbuddy_72
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Michigan, on the lake, 60 miles WNW of Chicago as the crow flies, or 90 miles if the crow walks.
Posts: 62

Bikes: Dolan DF4, BH Ultralight, 1974 Schwinn Paramount Track, Trek Alpha 1000, Trek 730, Miyata 930 affixed to a Brian Wind Trainer

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
[QUOTE=queerpunk;19963348]Well there's a curiosity. Are they saying that the trackends splay because people use the adjusters and don't actually tighten the wheel's nuts?!

queerpunk,

That is my takeaway after my email exchange with Dolan. See my post with their reply.

Again, I apologize for leading anybody astray.

Rick
rickbuddy_72 is offline  
Old 10-31-17, 09:13 AM
  #19  
rickbuddy_72
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Michigan, on the lake, 60 miles WNW of Chicago as the crow flies, or 90 miles if the crow walks.
Posts: 62

Bikes: Dolan DF4, BH Ultralight, 1974 Schwinn Paramount Track, Trek Alpha 1000, Trek 730, Miyata 930 affixed to a Brian Wind Trainer

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
That's why I was asking. From what I hear, people who actually torque to spec don't have the same post slipping issue as others. At the same time, it's nearly unheard of to torque a seatpost that much, so I am not surprised many have slipping issues. (I"ve even heard to go to as much as 19nm.)
I've suspected the same. Their direct-to-consumer model may contribute to this since there is no pro mechanic to assemble the bike and call out the unusual torque spec. Looks like the unique design of the seat post clamp -- more of an expansion-type system -- contributes to the high torque spec. Add to the fact that my other bikes have what I'll refer to as a more standard collar design requires around 5nm, and I start to see where others may become confused.

I hope this conversation has cleared up any issues. It has for me!

Rick
rickbuddy_72 is offline  
Old 10-31-17, 09:34 AM
  #20  
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,575
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1205 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by rickbuddy_72 View Post
Oh, I screwed up.

It's a good thing you asked me to find the instructions, carleton!

My bad. I apologize to everyone. I remembered the instructions wrong.
It's cool, man. I'm glad that you have it all sorted out now.

And yes, as Dolan noted, you do have the newest version of the DF4 trackend. Please let us know your experience with it (good or bad). I'm sure lots of people are very curious. It's great that Dolan updates their products as opposed to others that simply do not.

Last edited by carleton; 10-31-17 at 10:03 AM. Reason: sorrryyyyy
carleton is offline  
Old 10-31-17, 09:54 AM
  #21  
queerpunk
aka mattio
 
queerpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,502
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 304 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Trackend!

Nothing oughta drop out of it!

/pedantry
queerpunk is offline  
Old 10-31-17, 11:15 AM
  #22  
rickbuddy_72
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Michigan, on the lake, 60 miles WNW of Chicago as the crow flies, or 90 miles if the crow walks.
Posts: 62

Bikes: Dolan DF4, BH Ultralight, 1974 Schwinn Paramount Track, Trek Alpha 1000, Trek 730, Miyata 930 affixed to a Brian Wind Trainer

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
[QUOTE=carleton;19963468]It's cool, man. I'm glad that you have it all sorted out now.
Please let us know your experience with it (good or bad). I'm sure lots of people are very curious.

Thank you, I'll keep you updated.

Rick
rickbuddy_72 is offline  
Old 10-31-17, 03:22 PM
  #23  
MarkWW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: LI, NY
Posts: 483

Bikes: A little of each

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
Well there's a curiosity. Are they saying that the trackends splay because people use the adjusters and don't actually tighten the wheel's nuts?!
They're saying the track end splays because the track nuts are overtightened. If you use the adjusters, you don't need to tighten down as much, in theory. Felt said the same thing to me when they replaced my track end inserts. Squeeze something in the x direction (like with track nuts), it'll want to push in the y or z direction. That'll cause the splaying.
MarkWW is offline  
Old 10-31-17, 07:22 PM
  #24  
queerpunk
aka mattio
 
queerpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,502
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 304 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
that makes more sense. shame they couldn't put it as clearly as you did, on their instructions!
queerpunk is offline  
Old 10-31-17, 08:52 PM
  #25  
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,575
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1205 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by MarkWW View Post
They're saying the track end splays because the track nuts are overtightened. If you use the adjusters, you don't need to tighten down as much, in theory. Felt said the same thing to me when they replaced my track end inserts. Squeeze something in the x direction (like with track nuts), it'll want to push in the y or z direction. That'll cause the splaying.
There's one way to tell if it's from over-tightening or if the ends are simply weaker than needed.

If someone can find a pic we can see if the spreading is at the same angle from horizontal for both top and bottom parts of the track end OR if only the top one is spreading and the bottom remains intact.

If it's the former, then it's from over-tightening. If it's the latter, then it's from not-strong-enough track end system.
carleton is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.