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Track Racing Frames and Complete Bikes

Old 01-02-15, 08:04 AM
  #176  
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Originally Posted by taras0000
I second the idea of Ti dropout plates. I would like them done in the BT style tho, where it's a large metal plate bolted to the frame. I hate those little dropout inserts. The plates are easy enough to get sourced from a local machinist if need be and can be made in aluminum as well. I had a set of Ti plates made up for my BT by a guy. Took him all of 20 minutes to put each one on a flatbed scanner and have them cut on a waterjet. Ti is great not because it's soft as Carlton stated above. It's actually quite hard. It's positive attributes are that it's hard, elastic, and tough. This causes it to wear well, yet deform so that track nuts can bite, but the metal won't break loose because it is tough, keeping the nuts from slipping. I never got around to using them because I had yet to wear out the aluminum plate dropouts.
Ah. Thanks for the correction.

Does the BT come with a true 60cm TT?

(I'm going to sell all of my belongings and consider buying one)
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Old 01-02-15, 09:28 AM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by carleton
+1

I personally don't like it...even for enduros. There are better options out there.

I like the wheels, cranks, saddle and chain. That's about it.
I could probably get over the short dropouts and recommend it to people if it was a great value, but at over 2 grand? The only thing nicer than the tk2/omnium spec is the wheels, and those aren't worth that much more to me.
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Old 01-02-15, 02:34 PM
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[QUOTE=carleton;17433909
Does the BT come with a true 60cm TT?

(I'm going to sell all of my belongings and consider buying one)[/QUOTE]

I know for a fact that they come in a 59cm TT. I used to have a 57.5 TT and the 59 was the next size up. I believe the sizing is 52, 53.5, 55, 57.5, 59, 61? (never heard of one that big).
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Old 01-02-15, 03:25 PM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by taras0000
I know for a fact that they come in a 59cm TT. I used to have a 57.5 TT and the 59 was the next size up. I believe the sizing is 52, 53.5, 55, 57.5, 59, 61? (never heard of one that big).
What is the MSRP on those things? I can never get a straight answer from anyone.
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Old 01-02-15, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by sergioflorez
well, what does everyone think?
I'd be curious to ride one and see how it goes, they have a very slack seat tube angle in my size, which stretches the reach out quite a bit. It's still not the carbon track frame I'd like to see from Cannonade, but good on them for getting back in the game.
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Old 01-02-15, 03:52 PM
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That new Cannondale track bike seems like they did no market research before coming out with it. There are half a dozen similar bikes for much cheaper (giant, argon, fuji) that are just as good/better. Cannondale doesn't have a sexy italian name to match the added price, so not sure who their demographic for that bike is.

FWIW my shop was looking at around $2300cnd retail, compared to around $1300 on the giant. Where does the extra $1000 go?
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Old 01-02-15, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton
What is the MSRP on those things? I can never get a straight answer from anyone.
Back when it was just the cyclone model, there was an outfit in California called USauzziesales.com Don't seem to be around anymore. They were BT's US retailer and at the time frame, fork, HS, BB, stem, and seat tube would run US $7,000. I bought direct from 'Stralia as I was in Canada and the shipping from Cali would've been horrible anyway. I bought one from John Beasley that was slightly used and it cost me CAN $3,000 for the same package (shipped). I would just shoot BT an email and ask them directly. There was a guy who got rid of a 59cm Steath here in Edmonton this past September. I think he ended up eBaying it. It was only a year old and he had it stripped and repainted to look like an FES frame. Sold for CAN$1,250.

There's this cyclone (I know, short head tube) for sale
- BT 59cm Carbon Track Bike With BT Aero Bars NON Road Bike | eBay
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Old 01-02-15, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by taras0000
There's this cyclone (I know, short head tube) for sale
- BT 59cm Carbon Track Bike With BT Aero Bars NON Road Bike | eBay
He is asking to much for a Cyclone. I paid AU$2000 for my lightly used (barely a mark 57cm BT Stealth). There have been a number of BT Stealth, Blade and Edge frames going for sale on various Australian FB sales pages, though none quite as good a deal as mine (was listed a while with no takes, so after starting at $3500 he slowly kept dropping the price over 3 months till he dropped finally to 2K).
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Old 01-02-15, 06:57 PM
  #184  
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Thanks guys.

What were they thinking with the 2cm head tube on the Cyclone?
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Old 01-02-15, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton
Thanks guys.

What were they thinking with the 2cm head tube on the Cyclone?
Incorrectly that lower is always faster...
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Old 01-02-15, 09:14 PM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by derek.fulmer
Any word on the All-City Thunderdome? I'm thinking of selling my Look frameset and replacing it with something a litte larger.
I raced an All-City on the weekends this past year at T-town. It's a pretty solid bike that can handle large riders (I was 255lbs). I had absolutely no issues with the bike in 40+ races. My Thunderdome is 58cm, but I'm going smaller - to maybe a 55cm frame and maybe alloy rim tubular wheels. Another Thunderdome or the Look 464 are likely primary contenders to replace it as my "work-horse" bike.



My current "competition bike" is an Argon18 Electron Pro.



My dream bike (with the tall HT option):

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Old 01-03-15, 12:39 AM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by carleton
Thanks guys.

What were they thinking with the 2cm head tube on the Cyclone?
This is a holdover from when they designed the Superbike. The thinking was that certain frame dimensions could be minimized to accommodate as many riders as possible without being too detrimental to the fit and handling of the bike. The Superbike was originally designed to be a one size fits all frame. They claimed that it could accommodate anyone from 160-190cm in height (5'2"-6'2") just by using a different stem. I guess we all should have been grateful that they decided to make it in five different sizes!

That Cipollini Speed is all sorts of ugly! Even the geo is all wrong.
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Old 01-03-15, 01:09 AM
  #188  
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Re: ti track ends and dropouts. I have a custom ti road fix gear. I had it made with a very long road style dropout that opens at the front but down instead of forward so 1) wheel changes/flips really easy. No need to handle the chain at all. 2) with this setup I can tighten the track nut at any location inside the dropout and 3) I can locate the tire right behind the seattube without having to deflate the tire to pull the wheel. The dropouts were cut from 1/4" plate, just as a track end would be.

I had my doubts as to whether road style drops with a metal as "slippery" as ti would work without slipping. After three years, a lot of miles and countless wheel removals and flips, I no longer have doubts. Ti works as well as plain steel and better than chromed steel. And, the ti dropouts have held up really well. They look like they are set to go many more years.

Ben
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Old 01-03-15, 01:33 AM
  #189  
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Originally Posted by taras0000
That Cipollini Speed is all sorts of ugly! Even the geo is all wrong.
I always admired Super Mario's boldness, so I think this paint job is worthy of a bike carrying his name. The naked carbon and white painted versions look like any other carbon bike.

So what's wrong with the geometry? It has typical 73-75 size dependent angles and it has two head tube length options and two bottom bracket drop options.

Cipollini Speed Geometry (scroll down)
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Old 01-03-15, 09:32 AM
  #190  
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The Cipollini is absurdly expensive. I think it's like $6,000 USD. You can get bespoke (custom) carbon for those prices.

Those prices are totally unjustified...along with the bad paint jobs



There's a reason why we've never actually seen one in the wild

Last edited by carleton; 01-03-15 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 01-03-15, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Mtldealer
........................ What do you guys think of the BMC TR02?
I know of a rider who has a BMC TR01 on order. When I see it I will take a photo (unless someone beats me to it).
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Old 01-03-15, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton
The Cipollini is absurdly expensive. I think it's like $6,000 USD. You can get bespoke (custom) carbon for those prices.

Those prices are totally unjustified...along with the bad paint jobs

There's a reason why we've never actually seen one in the wild
You might see one visiting DLV next year.
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Old 01-03-15, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by dunderhi
You might see one visiting DLV next year.


Come on down. We are a lot friendlier that TTown! (I raced there in 2011 a little).
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Old 01-03-15, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton
:D

Come on down. We are a lot friendlier than TTown! (I raced there in 2011 a little).
Thanks, but I think T-Town is pretty friendly track. I shared my tent/stall with maybe 30 different people over the course of summer and more than half were people being new acquantances. Some would bring their own chairs to squeeze in, but we always made room. I had to buy a bigger canopy half-way through the season to make room. Of course, my teammates were regulars. So, if you come back up to T-Town, look me up, I'll save a spot for you.



Anyway, if all goes according to plan, I'll be down to DLV & Giordonna the second half of April this year. If that works out, I might make it an annual spring trip. I probably won't have anything like the Cipollini this spring, but next spring might be a different story.
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Old 01-04-15, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by dunderhi
I always admired Super Mario's boldness, so I think this paint job is worthy of a bike carrying his name. The naked carbon and white painted versions look like any other carbon bike.

So what's wrong with the geometry? It has typical 73-75 size dependent angles and it has two head tube length options and two bottom bracket drop options.

Cipollini Speed Geometry (scroll down)
There's a difference between bold and ugly. To each their own tho. I was looking at a geo chart on a different site, so I only saw the one with the Lower BB drop. I would like less offset on the fork tho. Also their XS frame has a steeper head tube than their S, then gets steeper again. Curious as to what's up with that. Usually frames get steeper as they get larger because you don't have to kick the wheel out to make room for the downtube.
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Old 01-04-15, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by taras0000
There's a difference between bold and ugly. To each their own tho. I was looking at a geo chart on a different site, so I only saw the one with the Lower BB drop. I would like less offset on the fork tho. Also their XS frame has a steeper head tube than their S, then gets steeper again. Curious as to what's up with that. Usually frames get steeper as they get larger because you don't have to kick the wheel out to make room for the downtube.
I suspect the XS HT angle is a typo, since the pursuit frame has the same (and expected) angles except for XS omnium frame HT. So, I think the correct number is 73 degrees.

Also, what is a good fork rake for an omnium bike on concrete tracks nowadays? I'm looking at picking up a Look 464 this spring which as 43mm rake and a 73.5 degree HT angle.
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Old 01-04-15, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by dunderhi
Thanks, but I think T-Town is pretty friendly track. I shared my tent/stall with maybe 30 different people over the course of summer and more than half were people being new acquantances. Some would bring their own chairs to squeeze in, but we always made room. I had to buy a bigger canopy half-way through the season to make room. Of course, my teammates were regulars. So, if you come back up to T-Town, look me up, I'll save a spot for you.

Anyway, if all goes according to plan, I'll be down to DLV & Giordonna the second half of April this year. If that works out, I might make it an annual spring trip. I probably won't have anything like the Cipollini this spring, but next spring might be a different story.
Thanks for the invite

Sounds like a great plan. I believe that Giordana starts their weekly racing early in the season as well. The climate is moderate there. Bobby Lea trained on Giordana's track through the winter leading up to the Olympics.
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Old 01-04-15, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
Re: ti track ends and dropouts. I have a custom ti road fix gear. I had it made with a very long road style dropout that opens at the front but down instead of forward so 1) wheel changes/flips really easy. No need to handle the chain at all. 2) with this setup I can tighten the track nut at any location inside the dropout and 3) I can locate the tire right behind the seattube without having to deflate the tire to pull the wheel. The dropouts were cut from 1/4" plate, just as a track end would be.

I had my doubts as to whether road style drops with a metal as "slippery" as ti would work without slipping. After three years, a lot of miles and countless wheel removals and flips, I no longer have doubts. Ti works as well as plain steel and better than chromed steel. And, the ti dropouts have held up really well. They look like they are set to go many more years.

Ben
Could you please post a photograph of your drop-out configuration? I'm curious as to how chain length adjustments are made.
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Old 01-04-15, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by dunderhi
I raced an All-City on the weekends this past year at T-town. It's a pretty solid bike that can handle large riders (I was 255lbs). I had absolutely no issues with the bike in 40+ races. My Thunderdome is 58cm, but I'm going smaller - to maybe a 55cm frame and maybe alloy rim tubular wheels. Another Thunderdome or the Look 464 are likely primary contenders to replace it as my "work-horse" bike.



My current "competition bike" is an Argon18 Electron Pro.



My dream bike (with the tall HT option):

Thanks for the info! I'll likely get the 58cm as well. I had the Look 464 but even before I finished building it, it felt way too small.
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Old 01-04-15, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dunderhi
I suspect the XS HT angle is a typo, since the pursuit frame has the same (and expected) angles except for XS omnium frame HT. So, I think the correct number is 73 degrees.

Also, what is a good fork rake for an omnium bike on concrete tracks nowadays? I'm looking at picking up a Look 464 this spring which as 43mm rake and a 73.5 degree HT angle.
The fork rake is dependant on the Headtube angle to give you the proper amount of trail for the handling characteristics that you want. Track surface is not important, but the banking is. I'm assuming you're talking about T-town. Alpenrose is concrete as well, but the two tracks are very different. The LOOK 464 front end has road geometry. It should be pretty neutral, but it will make the wheelbase longer. Should be fine for a do it all bike.
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