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Postexercise anabolic response to protein

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Postexercise anabolic response to protein

Old 01-29-24, 10:29 AM
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Postexercise anabolic response to protein

Report in a top journal says the anabolic response to postexercise protein ingestion is dose dependent and has no detectable asymptote.

https://www.cell.com/cell-reports-me...791(23)00540-2

Wherefore am I not swole?
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Old 01-29-24, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
Report in a top journal says the anabolic response to postexercise protein ingestion is dose dependent and has no detectable asymptote.

https://www.cell.com/cell-reports-me...791(23)00540-2

Wherefore am I not swole?
Maybe I'll stop off at Costco for that $5 roasted chicken and eat it all for my post ride snack. Should I pick up the hot dog, too?
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Old 01-29-24, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by RChung
Maybe I'll stop off at Costco for that $5 roasted chicken and eat it all for my post ride snack. Should I pick up the hot dog, too?
I can't think of a single reason not to.
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Old 01-29-24, 12:05 PM
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Too many words I had to look up to be certain I knew the meaning of. <grin>

Is this simply saying that if you eat more protein after exercise you get more muscle?. And the more you eat the more you get? Seems I must have missed something. More muscle isn't necessarily a good thing. Adds weight. Being able to use more of the muscles you have is better.
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Old 01-29-24, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
Too many words I had to look up to be certain I knew the meaning of. <grin>

Is this simply saying that if you eat more protein after exercise you get more muscle?. And the more you eat the more you get? Seems I must have missed something. More muscle isn't necessarily a good thing. Adds weight. Being able to use more of the muscles you have is better.
The study looks at the effect of a single meal of protein after exercise on amino acid levels in blood and incorporation into muscle. The big surprises are that this effect is a lot larger with a 100g meal than a 25 g meal (which was thought to be near the limit for stimulating muscle protein synthesis) and that the effect can lasts longer with more protein and can last for at least 12 hours. As a bit of background, the amino acids from that meal aren't just going to the muscle and being turned into protein, they're turning on a cascade of biochemical signals that change protein metabolism for a long time.

Nevertheless, this can't be the whole story or guys like me who are trying to make gains in the weight room and maybe overdoing the protein a little bit would look like the Incredible Hulk instead of pencil-necked geeks.
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Old 01-29-24, 08:26 PM
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For us, the issue is simply that we need carbs, protein, and fat, with quantities in that order to replace what we have burned. Most of us aren't trying to gain weight and we sure as heck don't want to mess up our livers. Most of us do just fine on the ordinary recs for quantities. So maybe the contention in that article is true, but who cares? We just want a positive nitrogen balance and we're good - but how do we know? I've read that the max was 40g. This might be quite interesting to track sprinters, but they probably already know it. I've messed around with increasing protein quantities, but then a blood test said that much was too much, dialed it back and fine now. Good to know though.
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Old 01-30-24, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
For us, the issue is simply that we need carbs, protein, and fat, with quantities in that order to replace what we have burned. Most of us aren't trying to gain weight and we sure as heck don't want to mess up our livers. Most of us do just fine on the ordinary recs for quantities. So maybe the contention in that article is true, but who cares? We just want a positive nitrogen balance and we're good - but how do we know? I've read that the max was 40g. This might be quite interesting to track sprinters, but they probably already know it. I've messed around with increasing protein quantities, but then a blood test said that much was too much, dialed it back and fine now. Good to know though.
I'd really like to enter my eighth decade with another 5 kgs of muscle on board, but I am unable to maintain weight when I'm riding as much as I really enjoy and I struggle to gain in the off season. I take your point about the potential ill effects of extreme protein loading and I seriously doubt I could even ingest 100g of protein at a sitting, but if someone told me it would work, I'd try it for a few weeks.

What kind of test are you referring to? A bump in a liver enzyme? Creatinine? How was that attributed to protein intake?
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Old 01-30-24, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by RChung
Maybe I'll stop off at Costco for that $5 roasted chicken and eat it all for my post ride snack. Should I pick up the hot dog, too?
Prior to my current diet, I might have been inclined to go for an Inn N Out burger double meat double cheese and fries with a coke. Horner would join me.
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Old 01-30-24, 10:22 AM
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How will you know if your inability to maintain weight is due to loss of muscle as opposed to just less body fat? Both visceral and subcutaneous fat. Visceral fat, I'd think would make the easier and more typical measurement of such think it was muscle loss when it isn't.
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Old 01-30-24, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
How will you know if your inability to maintain weight is due to loss of muscle as opposed to just less body fat? Both visceral and subcutaneous fat. Visceral fat, I'd think would make the easier and more typical measurement of such think it was muscle loss when it isn't.
I can see the muscle dwindling off my arms and chest and my wife starts giving me worried looks and asking if I want her to buy ice cream. Obviously, there's fat loss too, but for me that's neither here nor there.
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Old 01-30-24, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Hermes
Prior to my current diet, I might have been inclined to go for an Inn N Out burger double meat double cheese and fries with a coke. Horner would join me.
Regular coke or diet?
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Old 01-30-24, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
I can see the muscle dwindling off my arms and chest and my wife starts giving me worried looks and asking if I want her to buy ice cream. Obviously, there's fat loss too, but for me that's neither here nor there.
Thanks. I'm not just here trying to make out like this isn't a real issue. I actually am concerned about my own apparent muscle loss at my age of 65 yo. However I'm hoping that it's more due to my insufficient amount of exercise I'm getting for all of my body. Legs aren't a big issue since I do cycle. But my upper body is suffering badly. And I can't find the motivation to go to the gym regularly even though I frequently encourage others to do so.

Regardless of why I'm losing muscle, I do need to find some incentive to work out more.
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Old 01-30-24, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by RChung
Regular coke or diet?
Normally, I would go for diet but if Horner were there, it would be regular. And I would need it!
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Old 01-30-24, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
Thanks. I'm not just here trying to make out like this isn't a real issue. I actually am concerned about my own apparent muscle loss at my age of 65 yo. However I'm hoping that it's more due to my insufficient amount of exercise I'm getting for all of my body. Legs aren't a big issue since I do cycle. But my upper body is suffering badly. And I can't find the motivation to go to the gym regularly even though I frequently encourage others to do so.

Regardless of why I'm losing muscle, I do need to find some incentive to work out more.
My utterly uneducated hypothesis has been that some loss of muscle with age is inevitable. At 72, I'm opening as many jars as I ever did, but it's become more difficult in the last 10 or 15 years. I'm using it, but I'm still losing it.
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Old 01-30-24, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
Thanks. I'm not just here trying to make out like this isn't a real issue. I actually am concerned about my own apparent muscle loss at my age of 65 yo. However I'm hoping that it's more due to my insufficient amount of exercise I'm getting for all of my body. Legs aren't a big issue since I do cycle. But my upper body is suffering badly. And I can't find the motivation to go to the gym regularly even though I frequently encourage others to do so.

Regardless of why I'm losing muscle, I do need to find some incentive to work out more.
I can still put it back on in the gym it seems, but it takes real work and I have to back off on the bike miles. 65 was when I started getting more serious about the issue too and I’ve been lifting somewhat seriously for a little over a year. I have a great weight gym at work and actually enjoy the work, after hating resistance training for years. I guess everyone needs to find their own motivation.

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Old 01-30-24, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Hermes
Normally, I would go for diet but if Horner were there, it would be regular. And I would need it!
Go big or go home.
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Old 01-30-24, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
I'd really like to enter my eighth decade with another 5 kgs of muscle on board, but I am unable to maintain weight when I'm riding as much as I really enjoy and I struggle to gain in the off season. I take your point about the potential ill effects of extreme protein loading and I seriously doubt I could even ingest 100g of protein at a sitting, but if someone told me it would work, I'd try it for a few weeks.

What kind of test are you referring to? A bump in a liver enzyme? Creatinine? How was that attributed to protein intake?
BUN and BUN/creatinine ratio were both high during my experiment.. I cut back on whey and they both dropped into normal range. It was an experiment during a period when I was seeing doctors often enough - they always wanted a blood test, so they fell under my insurance. Of course I'm older than you, your kidneys might be able to process better. My BUN was 35 and the ratio 36. They dropped back to 21 and 18 respectively. My practice has been to take 17g of whey with breakfast, dinner and bedtime and then a 17g bottle for each workout, half before, half after. That bottle also has 2g of HMB and my evening bottle another gram. I doubled those protein amounts during my little experiment. YMMV
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Old 01-30-24, 12:48 PM
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Glad to read this, I've been spending more time this year looking at diet and exercise and this speaks to how I have to look more at what I'm eating after the workout. Usually I eat a protein bar before going and then do a more normal breakfast after but might need to consider adding an extra egg, yogurt or even a protein shake after. I've been under the whole 25g of protein is all the body can use in a day impression but this does seem to suggest that after a workout the body will process more and for longer. Not really interested in adding real muscle, mostly just burning off fat, but this could make recoveries better.
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Old 01-30-24, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Russ Roth
I've been under the whole 25g of protein is all the body can use in a day impression.
I assume you meant 25g in a single meal?
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Old 01-30-24, 03:25 PM
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Post ride roast chicken is great... But don't forget the beer...
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Old 01-30-24, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Russ Roth
Glad to read this, I've been spending more time this year looking at diet and exercise and this speaks to how I have to look more at what I'm eating after the workout. Usually I eat a protein bar before going and then do a more normal breakfast after but might need to consider adding an extra egg, yogurt or even a protein shake after. I've been under the whole 25g of protein is all the body can use in a day impression but this does seem to suggest that after a workout the body will process more and for longer. Not really interested in adding real muscle, mostly just burning off fat, but this could make recoveries better.
The methods are really complex and some of it unfamiliar, but I don’t think there is any indication that the whole 100g gets incorporated into muscle protein, since all they can trace is the labeled protein they’re dripping into a vein. Rather, the study focuses on the signaling role of that huge meal and the effects of that signal on protein metabolism.
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Old 01-30-24, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I assume you meant 25g in a single meal?
You are correct, distracted typing.

Originally Posted by MoAlpha
The methods are really complex and some of it unfamiliar, but I don’t think there is any indication that the whole 100g gets incorporated into muscle protein, since all they can trace is the labeled protein they’re dripping into a vein. Rather, the study focuses on the signaling role of that huge meal and the effects of that signal on protein metabolism.
Nothing there indicates it. From what I can read of it, and some of the terms required dictionary searching, it looks like a larger amount following a workout results in the body using a longer time period for the processing of the protein resulting in more of it being used for muscle recovery and development. Looks like they measured the difference based on the development in the body of amino acids that the body disposes of so obviously not all of it is being used. Just seems like for a recovery process following an intense ride or a hard workout at the gym, instead of worrying about capping intake at 25g, adding an extra 20-25g would result in a better workout result and better recovery. Just interesting since the first time I ever really looked at using protein years ago following a workout I was told that the body couldn't process more than 25g at and time and the rest would be simply excreted out, but this suggests that yes, adding something else for a bit more protein won't be a total waste.
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Old 01-31-24, 06:44 AM
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I found this podcast (ZOE interview with Prof. Ben Wall) very interesting in regard to protein intake and the anabolic window for recovery. A lot of coaches still follow the principle of consuming recovery protein in a relatively short window following exercise, but this Professor suggests that the anabolic window is much wider than was suggested from previous research i.e. at least 24 hours or more. So there is no big hurry to chug down 100g of protein shake or chicken in the hour or two after exercise! He also suggests that the daily effective intake of protein tops out at around 1.6g/kg for resistance based training, but could be higher for endurance. The latter seems to be uncertain. So for me that would be around 131g per day max. I probably don't hit that, but haven't checked recently.


https://zoe.com/learn/podcast-protein-and-exercise
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Old 01-31-24, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I found this podcast (ZOE interview with Prof. Ben Wall) very interesting in regard to protein intake and the anabolic window for recovery. A lot of coaches still follow the principle of consuming recovery protein in a relatively short window following exercise, but this Professor suggests that the anabolic window is much wider than was suggested from previous research i.e. at least 24 hours or more. So there is no big hurry to chug down 100g of protein shake or chicken in the hour or two after exercise! He also suggests that the daily effective intake of protein tops out at around 1.6g/kg for resistance based training, but could be higher for endurance. The latter seems to be uncertain. So for me that would be around 131g per day max. I probably don't hit that, but haven't checked recently.


https://zoe.com/learn/podcast-protein-and-exercise
Yes, current doctrine, backed up by pretty good data, is that the anabolic window something like 48 hours and meal timing doesn't make much if any difference during that period. However, those data come from conventional protein doses, not the "pharmacological" hit used here and the remarkable finding in this study is the effect of that huge bolus on the SUBSEQUENT rate of anabolism, suggesting that one might take a huge bolus at the beginning of the anabolic window and then eat "normally" with more benefit.
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Old 01-31-24, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
Nevertheless, this can't be the whole story or guys like me who are trying to make gains in the weight room and maybe overdoing the protein a little bit would look like the Incredible Hulk instead of pencil-necked geeks.
Ha! "Pencil-neck geek" was my nickname, given to me by my star athlete (football, baseball, track & field, wrestling) big brother. Ah, memories.

He's dead now, I'm not yet. My neck is still pencil-shaped, and strangers still yell out, "OMG, eat a sandwich!!!" I'm still riding pretty well, so whatever. Same height and weight as Sepp Kuss, 2.2 times the age, about half the power:



Obligatory thread content: I will get to the gym eventually (and eat more protein, I guess), after Mrs tm finishes her chemo rounds. I don't want to bring home any bugs.
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