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-   -   Skip the Weight Room - Do Sprints Instead (https://www.bikeforums.net/training-nutrition/1299160-skip-weight-room-do-sprints-instead.html)

terrymorse 08-22-24 04:54 PM

Skip the Weight Room - Do Sprints Instead
 
It seems that all cycling coaches today recommend lifting heavy in the gym, and they point to studies showing cyclists who lift get stronger, compared to cyclists who don't do strength workouts. Well, duh.

I've always subscribed to the "do your strength workouts on the bike" school, and I have the sore muscles to show that the bike workouts are working. Besides, I hate lifting at the gym.

Now there's a study that found sprint workouts are just as good at building strength as weight lifting. Better, actually, because sprints simultaneously improve VO2max.

Test protocols:
  • 84 healthy men, av. age 28.5
  • 5 weeks of training, 3 times per week
  • Resistance group did 4 x 10-12 rep leg presses
  • Sprint group did 4 x 30-second sprints.

The gains:
  • no statistically significant difference in knee extension strength gains
  • no statistically significant difference in leg press time to exhaustion gains
  • VO2peak improved 10.2% in sprint group, but only 2% in resistance group
So that's it. Go ahead and do leg presses if you want, but I'm staying with sprints (and getting VO2 gains at the same time).

Study: Silva et al, Cycle ergometer training and resistance training similarly increase muscle strength in trained men, J. Sports Sci 2022

MoAlpha 08-22-24 05:19 PM

Bad link, so no opinion on the study quality. The sample size looks pretty good, but “no difference” can be hard to establish statistically, even in big clinical trials with sophisticated designs, and if this is a typical sports science study it doesn’t even have a power analysis. That said, “no big difference” is often good enough to answer clinical questions like this.

Another question which comes to mind is the training status of the participants. Guys who compete, do high intensity intervals, or hard group rides, could be maxed out on those sprint gains. Almost anything resistance training noobs do causes strength gains.

I’m going stick with my squats for bone density, possible other myokine signaling-related health benefits, variety, and because I don’t hate the gym.

I’m also dubious that anything you can do on a bike does much for the hip extensors, which are critical for real world function and to protect the back in us olds. In my experience, strong glutes are also nice for getting low and flat on the bike.

terrymorse 08-22-24 07:00 PM

Link fixed, apologies for the fumble fingers.

slow rollin 08-22-24 07:18 PM

Specificity of training is VERY important, and cycling harder will give you that. So if you enjoy sprints/intervals/hills more then squats/deadlifts/lunges/etc then that's fine. That also correlates with their vo2Peak going up... since that's what you are training in all out sprints vs leg press or any strength training.

If you lift in the gym you will get stronger, but for cycling it will mostly help you get bigger muscles, stronger tendons/joints, fix imbalances(if you train right), and help you build mass that you can use on the bike. It also doubles down as a different stimulus so overuse issues are less of a factor. Also, most cyclists should do upper body training for health and body position resiliency, or at least some form of upper body sport. I do find when I stand with a big gear I can use my pec's, shoulder, and arm muscles to stand up the hill quicker.

Just try and use the different muscles in your legs when you are riding. Otherwise you can develop imbalances over time which lead to pain somewhere else and flexibility issues.
Yeah, sticking to any training modality is better then not, so sprint away I say.

work4bike 08-23-24 05:09 AM

Why not do both?

Lifting weights is actually multifaceted, it's not just simply doing reps, depending on which way you exercise you can build endurance, strength or power. And then you got isometrics and very slow and controlled reps...

However, I agree, don't skip sprinting.




.

RB1-luvr 08-23-24 05:54 AM

and sprints are way more fun.

PeteHski 08-23-24 07:21 AM


Originally Posted by work4bike (Post 23329759)
Why not do both?

That seems like the best compromise. As good as cycling is for aerobic exercise, it's pretty lacking as a full body workout. I would at least consider doing some other sport or training activity alongside. Even mountain biking adds in some extra muscle groups.

MoAlpha 08-23-24 07:56 AM


Originally Posted by terrymorse (Post 23329558)
Link fixed, apologies for the fumble fingers.

So, the missing power analysis and design of the analysis mean that the claim of "no difference" is not supported statistically. To do that you have to say in advance how much of a difference you would consider meaningful and then test for that with different statistics than those used here. However, in qualitative terms, it looks like the ergometer training was almost, but not quite, as good leg press regimen for strength gains. The design makes a good effort to equalize energy expenditure across the conditions and the guys were recreationally trained, which is good for drawing an inference for a cycling population.

I'm still going to do my squats and deads and save my sprinting for getting smoked by the local knuckleheads.

canklecat 08-24-24 02:00 AM

I'm more than twice the age of the study cohort, so my results are different. But I've had better results combining strength training with cycling. In particular I'm getting better stabilization of critical joints and muscles with strength training.

And I've noticed I'm no longer as picky about the bike setup. I don't fuss so much over saddle position, crank length, etc. The strength training seems to have relegated those factors to very minor concerns. Before starting a methodical strength training program in February this year I was fidgety about saddle height and position, bar height, crank length, cleat position, etc.

Dylan Johnson on YouTube has done a few videos about his own experiences and cites studies supporting the benefits of strength training for cyclists.

And Mike Israetel (Renaissance Periodization) has cited studies that show it's often better to separate strength and cardio/aerobic training. But his specialty is bodybuilding and he acknowledges the limitations of applying techniques for bodybuilding to other conditioning, and vice versa. But he makes a good argument that if we're working hard enough on strength training to get real gains, we should be too tired for aerobic/cardio training in the same session, and vice versa.

I do know that when I do sprints and HIIT on the bike my physical form rapidly deteriorates, which can lead to injuries. So I'll do both -- strength and cardio/aerobic training.

PeteHski 08-24-24 04:33 AM


Originally Posted by canklecat (Post 23330525)

And I've noticed I'm no longer as picky about the bike setup. I don't fuss so much over saddle position, crank length, etc. The strength training seems to have relegated those factors to very minor concerns. Before starting a methodical strength training program in February this year I was fidgety about saddle height and position, bar height, crank length, cleat position, etc.

.

I think this is a great point and something the TrainerRoad guys were talking about on their podcast a couple of years ago. The stronger and more mobile we are, the less we need to micro-manage our position on the bike.

I believe the great Eddy Merckx became a “micro-manager” after a major accident and Phil Cavell was discussing in his book (The Midlife Cyclist) how modern day physio and strength training would have greatly helped him.

Sierra_rider 08-24-24 05:51 AM

I'll continue to do strength training. From a racing perspective...when I wasn't strength training, I would end up with imbalances between the muscle groups and then end up with overuse injuries. I'm also doing it from an endurance perspective and the evidence I've seen says that strength training improves time to exhaustion on the bike.

The biggest reason for me, is that it's good for overall fitness. My job, at times, can be very physically demanding. Since doing regular strength training, I've noticed less aches and pains.

I admitted don't do much in the way of sprint training, mostly because I just don't need to. Even without targeting it, I'm a fairly strong sprinter...certainly enough for XC MTB racing. I've spent most of my time working on endurance/FTP, as that was previously my weakness. IMO, it would be a struggle to incorporate sprint training into my schedule. As it stands with my current rides/workouts, I think I'd struggle to add any more intensity to my schedule.

bruce19 08-24-24 06:11 AM

I no longer ride to get faster or "better" on the bike. I ride for enhanced quality of life and, hopefully, longevity. Everything I've ever seen on the subject says that the most important thing is physical exercise followed by diet. So, I go to the gym and lift 3-4 days a week. I ride my Triumph Street Triple there so that makes it more fun. Then about 2-3 days a week I ride a 10 mi TT near my house. I'd ride more but these days there are too many hot/humid days and rainy days. I no longer want to spend my Saturday on the bike and the TT fits my temperament. I'm only doing about 15 mph on a course with 50 ft/mi elevation. But, that's OK since I'm just trying to stay fit and enjoy the ride. At 78 I think I'm in a good place. My goal these days is to sit in my rocking chair on the porch with a cigar and a whiskey and smile at life. .

Carbonfiberboy 08-24-24 11:00 AM

You do both of course: strength training in the gym and sprints on the bike. The gym makes you stronger. The sprints teach you to deliver that strength to the pedals. Have to do both. Same with runners.
https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/how...-sprint-power/
It's really quite simple and logical.

RH Clark 08-24-24 12:16 PM

I do some on the bike some weight training. I don't do much for legs except the bike, but I add in some Yoga not nearly as much as I should. I can really tell the difference in just functional mobility when I am stricter to do the Yoga regularly. I don't do heavy anything at my age, but I work with enough weight and calisthenics training to get what I feel is a pretty good complete work out. I could do better but I have had some injuries and surgeries, and I am happy if I can maintain or increase slowly. I place more emphasis on doing a little at a time that adds up to a lot, rather than a lot every now and then because I don't have time for a lot every day.

Jughed 08-26-24 04:41 AM


Originally Posted by work4bike (Post 23329759)
Why not do both?

.

I've been trying to figure out how to incorporate both.

How/when to incorporate weight lifting, volume training on the bike, and intensity training on the bike.

Just the bike parts take me to my physical, mental and available time limits.

I don't recover well from intense training session on the bike. I'm limited to 2 weeks on one week off during interval training blocks - and even then, sometimes the wheels can fall off and I go into shutdown mode.

Full time job, three kids, house and all of the fixin's that go along with it. 8-10+ hours per week on the bike leaves little time for weight training. 2x per week intervals leaves little time to get leg work in and allow for proper recovery.

I carry a bunch of muscle around with me, and I add muscle quickly in the gym - I will gain weight, and I'm already sitting at 180-185#'s.

Lifting would = more time off the bike, more weight gain, and I'm not sure it would translate into performance gains on the bike.

PeteHski 08-26-24 09:14 AM


Originally Posted by Jughed (Post 23332228)
I've been trying to figure out how to incorporate both.

How/when to incorporate weight lifting, volume training on the bike, and intensity training on the bike.

Just the bike parts take me to my physical, mental and available time limits.

I don't recover well from intense training session on the bike. I'm limited to 2 weeks on one week off during interval training blocks - and even then, sometimes the wheels can fall off and I go into shutdown mode.

Full time job, three kids, house and all of the fixin's that go along with it. 8-10+ hours per week on the bike leaves little time for weight training. 2x per week intervals leaves little time to get leg work in and allow for proper recovery.

I carry a bunch of muscle around with me, and I add muscle quickly in the gym - I will gain weight, and I'm already sitting at 180-185#'s.

Lifting would = more time off the bike, more weight gain, and I'm not sure it would translate into performance gains on the bike.

If you are currently doing 10+ hours on the bike then you can afford to drop a couple of hours and move it to resistance and mobility training.

You might not gain any on-bike performance, but you might get less prone to aches and pains or more serious injury.

You can always back off the resistance training on your heaviest bike training weeks.

zandoval 08-26-24 09:27 AM

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3f10564ec3.jpg

Originally Posted by terrymorse (Post 23329472)
...So that's it. Go ahead and do leg presses if you want, but I'm staying with sprints (and getting VO2 gains at the same time).

Back in the days when I could run it was a true fact the a Sprinting Workout improved overall performance. Even the long distance runners would admit this.

We used to play this game called Godzilla. A group of us would get together and line up then one would yell Godzilla! Bam, you were off as fast as you could using every skill you had to stay ahead of the others. Of course the lagers, got eaten! ...Ha

goose70 09-05-24 08:55 AM


Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy (Post 23330756)
You do both of course: strength training in the gym and sprints on the bike. The gym makes you stronger. The sprints teach you to deliver that strength to the pedals. Have to do both. Same with runners.
https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/how...-sprint-power/
It's really quite simple and logical.

Except for people who are very time constrained. I do lift, although take 3-4 week breaks a couple teams each year. The issue for me, though, is that I have only 7-8 hours to train in a typical week. So every hour lifting takes away from the bike. I'm not going to stop lifting completely, but I've cut it down to two-45-minute session/week (only one of which is lower body) so that I'm spending some reasonable amount of time on the bike. Sprints seem like a good way to get many of the benefits of lifting without losing opportunities for VO2Max development.

Carbonfiberboy 09-08-24 08:52 AM


Originally Posted by goose70 (Post 23341231)
Except for people who are very time constrained. I do lift, although take 3-4 week breaks a couple teams each year. The issue for me, though, is that I have only 7-8 hours to train in a typical week. So every hour lifting takes away from the bike. I'm not going to stop lifting completely, but I've cut it down to two-45-minute session/week (only one of which is lower body) so that I'm spending some reasonable amount of time on the bike. Sprints seem like a good way to get many of the benefits of lifting without losing opportunities for VO2Max development.

45' twice a week should do it. I limit my rests between sets to 1'. That helps. Back when I was a strong rider, I'd do a set of three 45" hill sprints once a week. That seemed to have an effect. I'd usually crack on the last sprint, how I knew I was doing it right.

OBoile 09-09-24 07:21 AM

I'll just say the following two things:

Virtually every elite track sprinter lifts weights as a way to gain strength despite regularly doing sprints on a bike.

No elite strongmen use a bike as a means for gaining strength.

Draw whatever conclusions you want from that.

Bonus PSA: lifting weights does not make you gain weight. Eating food makes you gain weight. You will not gain weight unless you are eating a caloric surplus.

RChung 09-09-24 08:36 AM


Originally Posted by OBoile (Post 23344392)
I'll just say the following two things:

Virtually every elite track sprinter lifts weights as a way to gain strength despite regularly doing sprints on a bike.

No elite strongmen use a bike as a means for gaining strength.

Draw whatever conclusions you want from that.

Bonus PSA: lifting weights does not make you gain weight. Eating food makes you gain weight. You will not gain weight unless you are eating a caloric surplus.

I'll just say the following two things:

The goal of competitive cycling is to get to the finish line ahead of the next guy.
The goal of competitive weight-lifting is not to finish your lifts sooner.

Bonus PSA: weight-lifters don't have to lift their weights while climbing a 10 km 8% hill.

xroadcharlie 09-09-24 09:07 AM

"Skip the weight room, do sprints instead"

Indeed. IMO the same principle applies to most activities. In fact, weight training that is not carefully integrated into a training program may actually be determetal to optimal performance, whatever the activity, if that is your primary goal.


That said, For most seniors like myself (I'm 67) weight training, especially upper body, if you do some biking and/or walking for your legs, is very important for a healthy life. Just Google it. I'm not the only one that thinks this way. There is a cardio benefit to weight lifting as well.

OBoile 09-09-24 11:23 AM


Originally Posted by RChung (Post 23344460)
I'll just say the following two things:

The goal of competitive cycling is to get to the finish line ahead of the next guy.
The goal of competitive weight-lifting is not to finish your lifts sooner.

Bonus PSA: weight-lifters don't have to lift their weights while climbing a 10 km 8% hill.

I have to be honest, I'm trying, and failing, to see how this comment relates to mine or to strength building in general, in any way.

People who are serious about getting strong, aren't doing sprints on a bike instead of lifting weights.

work4bike 09-09-24 04:01 PM

:)

Follow the Science


terrymorse 09-09-24 04:40 PM


Originally Posted by work4bike (Post 23344855)
Follow the Science

I am following science. This science:

Silva et al, Cycle ergometer training and resistance training similarly increase muscle strength in trained men, J. Sports Sci 2022


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