too bad warren can't put down the donuts long enough to back up his arguments with even one bonafide study...

I'm a big fan of high fat diets although I should make a disclosure. A couple of years ago I was having serious issues with my liver and when your liver is at its limit THEN fat consumption can be undesirable. Not for long term though. Your liver NEEDS fat for fuel but in my case when it was seriously stressed from heavy duty mercury detoxification I had to be careful.

Now to be totaly honest though it was PROCCESSED vegetable oils that were the worst to deal with and so I had to give up on eating out. A little beef tallow, extra virgin olive oil or virgin coconut oil was OK in moderation but I still had to take it easy.

So, cause and effect. I don't doubt you when you say you had issues with a high fat diet that lead to heart issues but what was the real cause. A stressed liver DOES have implications for the heart and if you had started to detoxify heavy metals through the Atkins diet then that would have had heart implications too. I have in the past assocciated some chest pain with the times I knew I was detoxing mercury. It's a common situation.

Chlorella is a powerful natural food that helps many to detoxify safely and sauerkraut is know to be of assistance too.

And on a last note, quality is everything. MY high fat diet is full of organic animal foods. Most of them raw so infact I am getting vitC from my animal foods.

Regards, Anthony

I am really surprised that no one in this discussion (especially the lo-carb diet followers) has brought up the concept of thermogenesis (aka the metabolic advantage) that is beginning to question the idea that the "a calorie is a calorie" idea might not be entirely true. Any proponents out there? Anyone done any research? Found studies?

I never brought that up, because, from my experience, it's a dubious notion.. I'm more inclined to believe the reason low carb diets work to the degree that they do is because you naturally end up eating less calories than any other type of diet. The fat, or perahps the protein, satisfies your hunger, and you end up pushing away the plate sooner, and those sugary confectionaries (let's just call them donuts, ok, w?) don't appeal at all. there may be some slight "metabolic advantage," but I dont think it counts for all that much. I think Dr. A was reaching a bit on this point.

just my opionion tho.

but wait, I thought a low carb diet causes you to lose muscle and makes it impossible to exercise more than a short while (someone keeps mentioning 5 hour bike rides). I'm not much on worshipping hollywood idols, but when you look at his results and especially who he's banging, it's hard to argue...

keep in mind pitt was on this diet for the specific goal of looking a certain way for a relatively brief period of time. Look at any bodybuilder, they go to a very low carb diet as they are cutting for a contest, always running at the edge of ketosis. It gets them the results that they need for one night of competition, but in the long run it's not healthy and it's not sustainable.

I didn't bother reading this whole thread after the first two pages when the staggering amounts of misinformation turned me off, but I will say that there is a place for low carb diets (namely making a rapid body composition change in order to achieve a certain look for a relatively brief period of time). Not as a lifestyle change however, or as a healthy, long-term sustainable plan.

I dont know what a low carb diet is.. And think that its a rediculous use of the word.. People throw it out like the bann of all carbs is going to be the savor of the world..Yet have no idea of what I carb is..Theres a secretary at work who thinks that she is on a low carb diet who eats a big salad with cut vegatables every day for lunch along with some chicken or tuna on it.. No carbs for me she says.I tell her that 90% of her lunch are carbs.. No she says.This is low carb no bread!! No potatoes!! She has a peice of fruit mid morning and mid afternoon normally an apple or orange, low carb she says, no donuts or bagels for me.. Now shes eating sensibly and telling everyone that she lost weight on a low carb diet so whos to argue, but she could have just as well gotten that diet from a low fat high carb book as from a low carb high protein book..
Ive seen others on the so called low carb high fat high protein diet put a pound or more of processed cold cuts in front of themselves and feast away, glorious in their self discipline of putting no bread around it..Nice fresh Italian bread vs processed cold cuts, me Id rather eat the bread with a little salad..
One thing though does strike me in reading these threads and talking to some to some on the Atkins diet and the tone taken is that I can see some of the high protein crowd at a party with the good Reverend Jim Jones saying yes Reverend steak for breakfast, lunch, and dinner is great it can not harm us and the coolaid was great and Ill pass it along..

[QUOTE=Barese Rider]I dont know what a low carb diet is.. And think that its a rediculous use of the word.. People throw it out like the bann of all carbs is going to be the savor of the world..[/QUOTE]

This is exactly why this thread is never going to die... every day or two someone will read through some of it and get all fired up... then make them selves look foolish with a reply.

Here is a classic case of someone talking trash about low carb dieting, when in the very first sentance they admit that they don't know what a low carb diet is... Obviously he does not have a clue, he uses the term low carbs then refers to "the ban of all carbs" Then he talks negatively about a coworker trying to loose weight... making fun because she eats salads on her low carb diet....

I think we have a winner!!!!

Mike

Holy cow! The world is round!!!

Where is the Bonk???

Today I destroyed my solo ride distance record.... today my fat a__ peddled 77 miles!!! it took me 4hours and 32 minutes. (with one 15 minute break in the middle) I could have gone for 80... or possibly even 85 but it started getting dark out. While the last 10 miles or so were not the most enjoyable, I still felt great at the end of the ride... got a tiny bit dehydrated at the end (was out of water for the last 10 miles)...

It is an amazing thing when my body is running off a bottomless pit of fat on my body...

"You can't do an endourance sport like distance cycling on a low carb, high fat diet."

Yeah... Right.

Mike

Oh yeah, my average was 16.8mph, and i had at least a 10mph head wind for half of the ride.

Hey Mike,..I did not make fun of her attempt at weight loss, only her belief that she is not eating carbohydrates.Thats what her salad and fruits are, mostly carbohydrates.And its exactly what she would probably be eating on a so called low fat diet...So I dont know what a low fat diet nor a low carb are as both appear the same sometimes..!!You no carb fanatics cant seem to fathom that!!Hence the reference to Jim Jones and coolaid.. And you walked right into it!! Attempt at a little humour, so lighten up.Talk about winners.You take the cake, or is that steak..

I could care less what you eat.. Have steak for morning noon and night, make sure the dinner steak is at least 24 ounces...Top it off with mid night snack of a couple of eggs.. According to Freddy theres no evidence it will do you any harm.Im not making fun.. You can be the poster child one way or the other.. Stay on it for a year or so to give it a good chance to work one way or the other....If your healthy in a year than Freddy would be proven right.. If not well you drank the coolaid..

You still have no clue... you think that your coworker does not know she is eating carbs with the salad? No carb fanatcs? you have issues dude...

LOL!

Mike

I've done that ride IN HILLS with a higher average speed on a leisurely day in less time. There's your bonk. ;)

Koffee

OK I have been keeping track of all the foods that I eat in my attempt to reach a healthy weight; carbs is one of the categories I have been looking at. I am curious what low carb really means. I believe that you guys have not eliminated all carbs, but allow for some. On average how many grams of carbs does one restrict themselves to be considred on a low carb diet. I am not looking for exact science or accuracy just a general ball park figure of what low carb means to the people who use low carb as a way of life, or just as a way to lose some extra fat.
Thank you

Interesting journal article from the European Heart Journal (1997) 18, 18-22,
'The low fat/low cholesterol diet is ineffective' http://www.omen.com/corr.html

First, that's a pretty old paper. It's been a long time since that article was written, and there have been advances in the field of nutrition.

Second... duh (to the article)! They didn't mention anything about exercise. You can modestly decrease LDL by restricting saturated fat, but if you haven't done anything to raise HDL, you're still going to be at risk for cardiac problems. Just because you lower one component (LDL), doesn't mean the other (HDL) will increase. The key here is exercise- how much and how high an intensity? It's difficult to even deal with this article, since there are very good articles out there (and studies) that study the effect of diet and exercise on LDL and HDL.

Koffee

I feel like today was about spot on to where I want to be, maybe a few more calories in total.
http://www.fitday.com/WebFit/PublicJ...Month=0&Day=28
I know the total eaten is less than expended, but I really think that "lifestyle" calorie count is generous. Maybe I am a little high on the carbs, but I already had a ton of protein today, and to come anywhere near the calorie totals I might need, that would mean a lot of really fatty food if I were to cut carbs.

How bout Harvard? People trust them dont they?
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/index.html

Good reading, complete with the so called needed studies.

eh, as we all know, there are a bazillion studies and journal articles to support anything. Here's a brand newey which sums up all the misconceptions concerning cholesterol: http://www.jpands.org/vol10no3/colpo.pdf

For me low carb doesn't mean counting anything. To me it means cutting out the starches and grains but still eating "vegetable" vegetables and I eat a little fruit like blueberries, grapefruit and some dates or other dried fruit on big rides.

I just don't miss bread at all except maybe the sheer convenience factor because its everywhere but I realy don't enjoy it. Potato's are gone. I mean potato crisps are just C*** anyway. Now if someone par boiled them, sliced them moderately and cooked them in goose fat then maybe I would be in! They can be nice baked in thin slices and layered with cheese.

I'm always cooking meat with onions, garlic, mushrooms and serving with sauerkraut. Cauliflower, brochilli, zuchinni, mushrooms, onions ect are nice cooked in real bone stocks. Dark leafy salad greens with avocado and dressed with extra virgin olive oil.

Realy there are lots of ways to enjoy vegetables and still be considered "low carb". Enjoy a little more fat from butter and olive oil, don't be obssesive about trimming meat of its fat and consume protein moderately.

One of my all time favorite foods, chicken liver pate has a large onion and garlic in the recipe at least.

Regards, Anthony

Yeah, its still not a "bonk" though. Not the way you high carb fueled riders experience it. I've cerainly got tired on a ride and run out of "GO" but I've never experienced what you people talk about as a bonk except when I worked once for 12 hours overnight without eating and I'd been up for over16 hours. I bonked at the end of that experience.

Regards, Anthony

Koffee... so what are you trying to say? Are you suggesting that my ride was a "bonk" because you weigh half as much as me and are in much better shape, and can do the ride faster? I guess your idea of a bonk is much different than mine.

My idea of a bonk is when you reach the point of physical exhaustion... To the point where you just have to stop... you can't ride even a few more miles.... you are literally about to fall over. In the beginning of the month you claimed (as a certified intuitionalist...LMAO) that I could not do a low carb diet without bonking on a longer ride. Well I am here to say that once again a certified intuitionalist was proven WRONG

Thanks anyways,

Mike

Good question... we have been debating on this subject for a month, but still probably 75% of the people have no idea what low carb dieters actually eat!

First, I do not count carbs. There are however certain carb sources that I simply will not eat on the diet... Some examples of these are regular soda, bread, pasta, milk, rice, cereal, tomato sauce, pancakes, fruit,

I eat at least 3 meals a day. often I will eat 4. Each meal I eat some kind of meat with some kind of vegetable.

examples....

Breakfast... coffee (no pun intended :D )... I always have my NORMAL coffee. I pretty much always eat an omlet for breakfast. I believe I can eat them for the rest of my life and not get sick of them. they are my favorite food!!!!!!! usually 4 eggs with all kinds of good stuff mixed in... real butter, sausage, green pepper, red pepper, yellow pepper, jalapeno, onion, cheese, lots and lots of sauted mushrooms, bacon, and of course TOBASCO!!!

Lunch... tuna fish mixed with real mayonase, onions, celery and a nice side salad with normal ranch, italion, vinigerett, ceasar salad dressings.

or another favorite is baked chicken breast with side of brockly and cauliflour.

or another favorite is whatever fish I have in the fridge (I am an avid fisherman) served however I want it with my choice of veggie. I prefer frying my fish more than anything in my deep fat fryer.

or leftovers from the previous nights dinner with a side of fresh vegetables.

Dinner... Dinner is so much fun!!! I will always have some kind of meat at the main part of the meal with a side dish of either brockley or salad. You name it, I will eat it for dinner meat wise... some of my favorites are Steak (with a real butter, onion, mushroom sauce on top) My famous rotiseree rost, deep fried buffalo wings (I can't stop eating these things lately), any fish i have in the fridge, dear, pork chops, ribs, MEAT!!!!

Snack I don't eat many snacks on this diet because generally speaking except for meal times I simply am not hungry!!!!! but when I am, I usually eat some cheese, or a whole cucumber dipped in my favorite salad dressing, or any meat leftovers from another meal.

I can drink all of the diet soda I want. However, I have always been a big water drinker so at least 75% of my drinks in a day are water. And I do drink plenty.... I probably averatge 12 - 8oz cups a day.

In general I experiment with different spices and peppers on most of my meats. I do not use any BBQ sauces, or ketchups, or things like that.


This my friends is an average low carb diet. I suspect that there are many people out there that are absolutely against the idea of low carb dieting because they do not realize that they themselves are already on a low carb diet!!!!!!


Mike

PS. Just running through some numbers in my head, going by how many carbs are in my peppers, onions, brockley, salad, mushrooms, cauliflower, cucumber, and some of my other normal daily foods, I would say my carb count is somewhere around 40-50 carbs per day. (again this varies greatly and is only a guess at this point.)

Mike, do you really think that the people in this thread who are disapproving of the "low carb" concept are themselves eating deep-fried meat at every meal and no vegetables to speak of? I can't help but point out that even mrfreddy acknowledges the damage done by trans fats -- which proliferate in your deep fat fryer, especially if you reuse the oil. :(

Do you know what a well-rounded, vegetable-based diet of 55-60% carbo looks like? Or are you in your turn assuming that everyone who eats "high carb" is gorging on Wonder bread and donuts?

Akarius, the Atkins diet Induction phase is what most people think of when they say "low carb". This is strictly limited to no more than 20 grams of carbohydrate per day -- less than 80 calories. While the Atkins plan does have phases in which the carb count is slowly raised to mitigate the rate of weight loss, many people fail to move beyond Induction. This is for many reasons: Atkins says in New Diet Revolution that it's OK not to move beyond Induction, and he says it leads to quicker weight loss; it's easier to get "practically no" carbo than to carefully count net grams to determine your personal optimum level; and because people are frequently "falling off the wagon", after which you must begin again at Induction.

Mike, do you turn the faucet off while you are brushing your teeth? Just curious.

It amazes me how some of you are so tied up in your emotions on this subject that you can not even read and comprehend an entry... In my posting giving some examples of what I eat, what exactly led you to believe that I eat deep fried meat at every meal? What in the world led you to believe that there are "no vegetables to speak of?"

If you have a reading disability, I appologize in advance.

Mike

OK, "deep fried meat at every meal" was hyperbole, but only because *meat* at every meal, including deep fried fish as your favorite lunch, and deep fried buffalo wings as your favorite dinner, completely overwhelmed me. :( I didn't realize how much of a paradigm shift I'd undergone in the last few years. The thought of eating like that is incredible to me, it just is. I mean jaw-dropping.

I understand that you're making an effort in order to consume your bell peppers, your broccoli, and your salad. I respect that you are doing this in order to be more healthful. But...I have grown to expect that each meal will be based around a fruit or a vegetable, and I've been known to have dinners incorporating a pound of cooked greens, a cup of legumes, AND four cups or more of tossed salad. In comparison, your side dishes just don't seem like much.

If I stretch, I can imagine a lot of people on the Standard American Diet eating like that, plus a lot of potatoes and pizza dough and white fluffy burger buns, maybe even fewer veggies, and you're right -- you're probably doing a little better than they. But you've implied that many people who don't think "low carb" is healthy, yet eat like you do and think *that's* healthy. I find it very, very hard to believe, *particularly* of the population of this cycling training board.