fizbiz

Hi all. Have been a bodybuilder for the last 8 or so years and have done very well at it. I never did any cardio. Bulking was my only objective. I stay naturally lean so only cut fat for one or two weeks every spring to get the veins ripping.

About 3 months ago, however, I had an epiphany about cycling. It's just such a practical way to get from point A to point B. Decided to start commuting by bike. For the first month or so I was riding I know I pushed too hard too fast. I jumped right into 20 mile rides with slightly more than zero riding experience since I was a kid. I knew I was pushing too hard, but as a bodybuilder my results were because of my training intensity. I just couldn't stop myself. I've been an athlete (albeit of a very different discipline) for too long. For the last month I have been riding no more than 10 miles at a time. Even that only rarely. Mostly 5 miles a couple times a week and my legs seem unable to recover even from this. I haven't gone to the gym for the last 2 months because I noticed even slower recovery on the days my upper body is demanding nutrients as well. It has been 8 years since I voluntarily gave up 2 months in the gym. Such is my dedication to my new found passion. With winter coming up I'm thinking about putting my bike in my basement for the next 2-3 months to give my legs adequate time to recover. It might seem like a really long time but I've put 10 days between rides, and after the first 3 days I seem to hit a wall. No noticeable decrease in the constant soreness for the next 4, 5, even 7 days. Will focus on regaining my lost muscle mass on my upper body. I don't really have a specific question. I'm just DESPERATE for input from people that know this sport better than me. I've never in my life been over-trained as a bodybuilder. Several competitive bodybuilders have been unable to keep up with me (especially my arm workout). Cycling though...I'm at a loss and need advice. Any input will be greatly appreciated.

CbadRider

Are you taking any rest days from cycling?

fizbiz

Yeah. Recently 3-5 days between rides to no avail.

ericm979

5 miles with 3-5 days between rides is hardly anything. Even if you're riding really fast for your current cycling fitness. It shouldn't be making you sore for days. Have you ruled out a medical problem?

Which muscles are sore?

fizbiz

I realize my current amount of riding is almost nothing. It's not this that is making me sore. Rather I think it's preventing my ability to recover. I think that as a bodybuilder I'm used to experiencing an almost painful degree of delayed onset soreness. It was this that led me into such severe over-training right off the bat. I started with a 15 mile ride. Then went to 20 even though I hadn't recovered. Then continued riding to the gym (where I would body build intensely for an hour) for the next several weeks despite the almost painful soreness. I thought my recovery ability would catch up but it seems not to be the case. I appreciate the input guys but I know what I need to do. This post was more a rant born of frustration and anger. I know what I need to do. Take several weeks off to recover. I'll post an update (hopefully a positive one) in 2-3 weeks.

gregf83 

What you've been experiencing is not what is commonly referred to as over-training.

Rather than staying off the bike completely, I would recommend riding more frequently but at a low intensity level. Get used to spinning with high cadence/low force. Use a roller to massage your muscles if they remain sore.

When you get to the point where you can ride regularly without soreness start adding some intensity and mix it up with easy recovery rides.

electrik

Given your success weight lifting, realize that you might be the type of person who can easily gain fast twitch muscle but slow-twitch is impossibly slow. There are other things which happen also at the higher levels, your heart changes and your capillaries change... It's a whole new game.

Start again slowly, spinning hard using the indoor bike when you lift. Just easy pace when doing errands. If you don't slow down the intensity you'll get things like tedonitus and that will make you unhappy.

cyclezen

+1
also, if you're not giving enough warmup time/miles it's very easy to make the muscles lock up and take days to recover. I need about 6-8 miles of warmup before any serious hard effort - that's around 30 min.
I'm lucky, I bicycle commute - only 3 miles each way. But comin home I start my warmup, so when I get home I jump on the bike for a training ride and only have to do 12-14 min. at a middlin pace before I can get into a training session.
If you're gonna ride for an hour - 12 to 15 min is prolly the needed warmup, then ramp up the workout easily.
If you're gonna ride for 1 1/2 hours - same 12 to 15 min warmup.
If you are hammering from the get go (at least to what your muscles can stand), the muscles will actually fall into that state faster.
old cycling term - wooden legs - hard as oak, painful, difficult to maintain any spin, no power.
where are you? in a warmish winter climate, So Cal/AZ - Fla ? if not make sure you start well covered, especially the legs - leg warmers, take off layers as the day, and you warm.
like Greg says, stay in low gears for the winter months, work on developing a good spin, warm up well before any hard efforts.
for training rides at under 60 deg F, I suggest arm warmers, at around 50-54 deg. and lower, I recommend light leg warmers.

building cycling performance is an exercise in patience

hopperja

What about other forms of cardio? Interval training?

travelerman

I think the posts about your not having developed slow-twitch muscles are dead-on - the muscles you have built with your body-building regimen are not going to serve you well on a bike. It is going to take a lot of time to convert them to be able to withstand the endurance needed for cycling, and you will probably need to decide if you're willing to give up some of the definition and characteristics of the type of muscles you have enjoyed.

I'm not an expert in the fitness training by any means, but I think it might be more difficult physically for you to re-configure your current muscle mass than it would be if you were building muscle mass from the ground up... and remember that cycling and endurance is more about the carbs than the proteins; your basic nutrition is a lot different when you are building and feeding endurance muscles.

Age is going to be a factor, as well, as I discovered when getting back into it after 21 years away - my 47 year-old metabolism responded quite a bit differently - needing more time and different configuration of nutrients - than when I was 26...

Carbonfiberboy 

I know a 50 y.o. guy who does the Death Ride, competes in long distance races, and also competes and wins in posing, Mr. Natural type events. So it can be done. But yes, it's a "ride lots" kind of thing. You do what you have to do to allow you to ride lots. IOW, slow at first.

Richard Cranium

You're in all kinds of trouble.

First of all - there's just no way that anyone knows what's going on with your new found bike riding efforts. Off hand - if you are smart enough and dedicated enough to understand muscle fiber science - then you should know how badly you have stacked the deck against enjoying aerobic activities.

That being said, in the broadest terms - it take about three months to start really changing muscle structure away from one type of fiber - and hopefully into a different kind. If you continue to life or still dedicate resistance training to your legs - then even longer.

If you want to become a good cyclist - the quickest way is to eat, sleep and live like one. Stay out of the gym......

tadawdy

I don't know it's all that bad. All training drives IIb (x/d if you prefer) to IIa; I'd doubt local muscular adaptations are the core of his problem. Stopping the lifting in order to ride may help his progress, but even that is contentious (it might depend on his exact weight training regimen). Since he's never done cardio, he probably has low endurance, though.

OP, there's a lot about you we don't know. How are you eating now? Are you trying to stomp on a big gear and turn it 60 rpm? It's definitely easier on the joints and muscles to use a smaller gear and turn it faster. You also haven't told us exactly where you're sore. A bike fit issue, for example, could make you sore in your hamstrings.

As I'm sure you know by now, it's unusual to have actual soreness in a muscle for a week after exertion. Probably not DOMS. Could be tension-related, Like someone else, I'd suggest stretching and foam rolling and seeing if that helps.

Bodybuilding training tends to be very high volume. Riding much and following a bodybuilding routine may not work out for everyone, because of the added volume on the legs. When I'm trying to lift and ride a lot, I have to keep it low volume (though high intensity) and only once or twice a week. This is typical for cyclists who also want to strength train.

fizbiz

First of all I just want to say this is great forum! You guys/girls have been very helpful and supportive. Honestly I was expecting some snide remarks. One theory of mine was what several others mentioned, and that is my tendency to GROW muscle. It's not only due to my years of bodybuilding, but is in my genetics. I train each muscle group once every 7-10 days (almost always isolation), and experience a healthy soreness for at least 4-5 days following that. Most people can't believe I can train so infrequently and get the result I do. Again...the soreness lasts for close to a week, and all that time I am "growing". I have been accused by many of being of steroids. It's just my genetics. As for my legs...I never trained them nearly as hard.

I think inadequate warmup is definitely a possibility. The feeling is definitely one of tension. Somebody described "wooden legs" and I think that is a part of it. I researched cycling thoroughly in the last several months and as such have focused on keeping a higher cadence than I would have otherwise been using. I will however try spinning in a lower gear and for a longer time. Will also give more frequent but lower intensity riding a shot. I will not give up bodybuilding (as one person mentioned). I intend to bike commute. Not race. As such I don't see any conflict. And frankly...biking with my shirt of in the summer wouldn't be nearly as fun...

Thanks for all the help guys...I'm really psyched again. Update in a week or two.

ericm979

That may be part of the problem.

If you're commuting, just cruise. Don't worry about going fast.

fizbiz

Just went on a short errand...and amazingly resisted the urge to upshift. Basically treated the whole ride like it was a warmup. Slow and steady. It's been a long time since I enjoyed riding as much as I just did. Sometimes we just need to hear what we already know from somebody else.

coachloren

Hello fizbiz,
Do you know who Kalman Szkalak is? Kal was 1976 AAU Mr. America and 1977 IFBB Mr. Universe. Today Kal is an elite masters bike racer. He races locally here in SoCal and regularly races at National's and Worlds. Here's a link to a you tube video of him https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfQHkoPYxPo in his body building day. Today Kal still has a well defined body but it looks nothing like it did in the video. It has transformed into the body of a cyclist. Here's a link to Kal's 2011 racing results https://scnca.com/schedule2011.asp?fn...=Masters+55%2B. This should give you the encouragement to know that you can become a cyclist.

fizbiz

I did not know who he was. It always feels good to see people break the rules imposed on them by normalcy.

So as it turns out. I think a lot of the "soreness" was really just tightness that has been significantly alleviated by riding two days in a row at low intensity. Part of the problem was that the first few weeks I was riding my seat was way too low. My legs feel great right now. Riding more frequently rather than less was very counter-intuitive for me but seems it was just what I needed. That...and longer warmup time. I know how to interpret my muscles' cues when weight lifting but this is a new language for me. I might not be fluent yet but I think I am reaching conversational. I'm still relatively young (26), so I have time to learn.

BTW. 1997 Kal has nothing on me...(joking).

cyclezen

glad you're finding things that work for you.
warmup is incredibly important... cellular function is greatly affected by the ph environment both intra and extra cellular. In Spades for muscle function.
A very hard effort without warmup quickly causes a breakdown in power output. Here's a good overview article which starts some discussion
https://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ctic-acid-buil
In the extreme, muscle will completely shutdown and become incredibly painful - shortly after starting the hard effort in muscle where good circulation has not already been initiated. Then the likelyhood of DOMS at a later time, is almost inevitable. I have personal experience with this kind of condition - awful.
With cycling (and other activities which require a constant hard effort) getting into this condition means no recovery without a complete slowdown or stopping. So as good a warmup as possible is essential for best leg muscle performance.

slow twitch, fast twitch - is largely a matter of genetics. we can all train to max our capabilities, but making dramatic changes to muscle type has not be scientifically determined. I wouldn;t worry so much what type of muscle predominates for you. If you get really into performance cycling then a different mindset, particular to cycling, becomes the important primary consideration. Things you do for lifting, don;t necessarily apply to cycling.
There's a lot of great info available for good cycling training practices.
Here's one place to start
https://www.joefrielsblog.com/
he has a ton of good stuff in his blog archive

late

Do a classic periodised winter training schedule from around 1980.
It works.
If you can't find one let me know, there was a version on Bicyling called The Best Training Plan Ever.

or..

https://www.amazon.com/Base-Building-...2055645&sr=1-1

sjvcycler

Go to a sports Dr and get yourself back on track physically and mentally.

fizbiz

So I thought I would share some good news. I have ridden every this past week, slowly increasing my distances. In the last two days I have done 35 miles and my legs feel great. I think it has been long enough to say definitively that I was not experiencing soreness. It was tightness and a buildup of metabolic waste products caused by working the muscles too hard prior to achieving sufficient blood flow to flush said products from the area. I am back on track but plan to continue taking it easy for the next week or two. There is still some residual tightness, although the strength and endurance seem to have returned in an improved state.

koffee brown

I don't get it. If you're a personal trainer, why don't you know other personal trainers you can ask, rather than coming onto a bike forum asking lay people for their opinion? I'm sure there are trainers out there that work with cyclists- when in doubt, you can also go to usacycling.org and find a cycling coach.

koffee

fizbiz

This may come as a shock to some people, but personal trainers are not always trained to a high standard. Good enough for most people, but not serious athletes. I do not take advice from people that train others, I take it from those who actually test those training regimens on themselves. I wouldn't ask a personal trainer with 16" arms how to get mine from 18.5" to 19" and improve the peak. Or how to target the inner tricep belly. Why...I would rather ask the guy (whose not a personal trainer, but a bodybuilder) who has visual proof that he has accomplished more than me. Not somebody who regurgitates the crap they read in some Men's Fitness type magazine. I just thought online forums were a place to share ideas. Somewhere that many people can contribute to a conversation. Also...I am no longer working as a trainer...hopefully starting dental school soon.

Creakyknees

2 things: diet and bike fit.

1) Are you doing the usual high protein / lo carb bodybuilder diet? That's not compatible with repeated long bike rides. You need carbs.
2) Bike fit. You figured out that your saddle was too low. I'd guess that there are other problems that will manifest as you put more miles on. Go to a bike shop, or ask around the local cycling clubs, have someone check your position / fit on the bike. Heck, even an indoor spin instructor with real-world experience should be able to get you in the ballpark.

Have fun.