hamster

I know that my maximum power output is about 270 W for 5 min and 190-200 W for an hour. That's sitting and with cadence in 80-100 range. We have some pretty steep hills around here (12%+) and my power and equipment does not allow me to pedal at 80 rpm up 12% for any significant period of time. So I've been doing some standing workouts up those hills. What I'm seeing is that, when I'm standing, my power output seems to be noticeably lower than what I can do sitting. I can't do more than 200 W for 5 min and it goes down after that.

Today I did a particularly nasty hill, took me 25 min to get to the top, out of the saddle almost all the way. I had to stop and catch my breath halfway up. Towards the top I was averaging only about 160 W, even though my HR was way past lactate threshold and I got within 10 bpm from HRmax. My legs were killing me too, all the way from quads to the lower back. (Not the lower back as in "glutes", but quite literally, at the level of the iliac crest. I'm not even sure which muscles I have there.)

Since my VO2max is obviously the same sitting and standing, it seems that my legs are much less efficient out of the saddle than when I'm spinning. Which raises some questions:
* Is that to be expected if I don't have much standing experience?
* Will my standing power ever match my sitting/spinning power with more training?
* Is it also the question of having the proper technique - maybe I'm doing something wrong and that's why I'm not getting the power I'm expecting?

chasm54

Almost everyone is less efficient when climbing out of the saddle (OTS). That's because you recruit more upper-body muscles, which takes energy, which means you will experience higher HR for a similar power output, stressing the CV system. Hence getting out of breath. Very few can climb OTS for 25 minutes at a stretch unless they are taking it pretty slowly. Your standing power will match or exceed your seated power because you are using your bodyweight, but only for short periods.

Having said that, there are issues of technique. It's difficult to maintain a high cadence OTS without simply becoming exhausted, so change up one or two gears as you stand. Stand as straight up as possible, so that most of your weight is directly above the bottom bracket and as little as possible is on the bars. Get into the sort of rhythm you might use on a stepping machine in a gym, maybe 60rpm rather than the 70 or 80 you might use seated. Climb on the hoods, Keep your body near vertical and let the bike rock from side to side between your legs. Don't fight too hard to keep the front wheel straight, it's normal for it to weave slightly as the bike sways. As always, relax the upper body as much as you can.

hamster

Interesting. 60 rpm though? If I can do 60 rpm out of the saddle, with reduced efficiency, I might as well just spin 70 rpm seated to the top. I'm talking about the kinds of grades where I'd be lucky to manage 50 in the lowest gear.

Carbonfiberboy 

What the chasm said. Some people climb very well OTS, others don't. A lot of that is body weight. Thin climbers go well OTS. I've ridden with one guy who was always faster OTS. If a rider is light enough, it probably comes down to specificity - one does well what one does most. At 5'6" and 158 lbs., I'm always faster ITS, all the way down to 35 rpm. OTOH, my legs get tired only doing one thing, so I'll stand from time to time, even though it spikes my HR. Everyone's different about that. Carmichael was always telling Lance to get his butt in the saddle, but he did pretty well standing too. If you're light and have a huge VO2max, you can do whatever.

You can train seated efficiency by doing some 50 cadence grinding intervals, or like you say, just climbing really steep hills seated. Don't move your upper body or allow the bike to change speed during the pedal stroke. Similarly you can train standing efficiency by say, doing similar 500' vertical climbing intervals standing.

My only standing tip to add the chasm's is to keep your knees close to the top tube.

clemsongirl 

Even though as already said you should get some more power standing you’re also using more energy and the heavier you are the more weight you’re putting on your leg muscles....and then i also have a friend I ride with occasionally who has such a large strength to weight ratio that she can do long climbs entirely off of the saddle.

Perhaps a better body position and rhythm will help your power output. If your bars are too low it will make getting an optimal position difficult. You may also just need to practice it to get your muscles to adapt to the position for both motor learning and muscle development reasons.

I ride long steep climbs on my weekend rides for my strength and endurance training. I’ll get off the saddle when I need some power to get around someone etc., to stretch my back or on a really difficult climb to make changes in my muscle groups. For a smooth transition I’ll move my hands to the hoods, shift and stand as my right foot begins its downward stroke. I’ve learned by watching the movement of my stem I can quickly get a fluid rocking movement and know the rhythm that allows my leg to make a direct push on the pedal making the best use of my weight and keeping a smooth stroke. Keeping my chest open for breathing efficiency, not leaning forward enough to put weight on the front wheel but enough to put my weight over the axis of the crank rotation and having the tip my saddle just barely brushing my thigh gives me a body position that works well for me. Either sitting or standing I try to keep a smooth pedal stroke and my body relaxed and breathing efficiently.

hobkirk

Carmichael says don't bother standing if you weigh over 2.5# per inch of height. At 73" and 220# (3 #/inch) I sit. Standing tires me out.