Why does John Forester have to pass a beauty contest?
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Why does John Forester have to pass a beauty contest?
It's pretty obvious that John Forester is here posting because some of us have made some stark accusations publicly, and if shots were being fired at me, I'd like to be close enough so I could shoot back a little.
I've said before I don't always like Mr. Forester's sometimes abrasive style of communication, but I've also said that this trait has it's benefits. He's a fighter, and that may be what it takes to stand up to people who want to brush cyclists aside, off into the gutter.
Now this part of his personality is not politically-correct enough for some of us. But it's exactly what was needed at one time, and probably still is. He's a hammer, and you don't want to use a hammer on a screw, but try hammering a nail with something else.
Frankly, his straight-forward style worked well in getting me out on the road, and I surely haven't been sorry. If he isn't a perfect angel, I won't be disappointed.
I've said before I don't always like Mr. Forester's sometimes abrasive style of communication, but I've also said that this trait has it's benefits. He's a fighter, and that may be what it takes to stand up to people who want to brush cyclists aside, off into the gutter.
Now this part of his personality is not politically-correct enough for some of us. But it's exactly what was needed at one time, and probably still is. He's a hammer, and you don't want to use a hammer on a screw, but try hammering a nail with something else.
Frankly, his straight-forward style worked well in getting me out on the road, and I surely haven't been sorry. If he isn't a perfect angel, I won't be disappointed.
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Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
It's pretty obvious that John Forester is here posting because some of us have made some stark accusations publicly, and if shots were being fired at me, I'd like to be close enough so I could shoot back a little.
I've said before I don't always like Mr. Forester's sometimes abrasive style of communication, but I've also said that this trait has it's benefits. He's a fighter, and that may be what it takes to stand up to people who want to brush cyclists aside, off into the gutter.
I've said before I don't always like Mr. Forester's sometimes abrasive style of communication, but I've also said that this trait has it's benefits. He's a fighter, and that may be what it takes to stand up to people who want to brush cyclists aside, off into the gutter.
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I think part of the issue on how others feel about him is because they themselves are the same way or similar. When this happens there is conflict. Either because we do not like seeing ourselves in other people or because 2 people with the same personallity because 2 of the same type can clash. Those with an aggressive unrelenting personality prefere to associate with people who are more subdued & not as aggressive.
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
'fraid that don't wash, LittleBigMan. Forester is not defending cyclists in this forum, he's defending his previous work by shooting the same blanks (of faulty and misleading risk analysis, sophistic arguments and psycho babble), he's been firing for the last 30 years. Smokescreens of obfuscation, straw men/ad hominem arguments, stereotypes, exaggerated enemies, etc won't make those blanks anymore effective at shooting down righteous criticism.
I can only go by personal experience on this. Everyone else will too, I'm sure.
When I started riding my bike to work years ago, only one strategy made it practical: those put forth as part of vehicular cycling. Bike facilities were either non-existant or totally impractical for my needs--there is one path/route that goes from Stone Mountain to Atlanta, but it's almost 20 miles long, very slow, and has many tricky or blind intersections.
Principles put forth by John Forester (the curmudgeon) were almost solely responsible for enabling me to discover the great joys of bike commuting at a time when all the "advocates" were still saying I couldn't do that in Atlanta because we still needed more bike facilities. In fact, 10 years later, the "advocates" are still saying that.
With all the negative publicity he's gotten on these forums, I'd like to say publicly, thanks John.
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Last edited by LittleBigMan; 03-23-07 at 06:41 AM.
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Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
You're entitled to your opinion.
I can only go by personal experience on this. Everyone else will too, I'm sure.
I can only go by personal experience on this. Everyone else will too, I'm sure.
Personal opinion and personal experience (and personal agendas) are not a very "scientific basis" for recording/evaluating "evidence" about cyclist behavior or safety records, reaching conclusions about comparative risk, and making psychological evaluations of the entire population of cyclists, would be cyclists, and never were cyclists.
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Personal opinion and personal experience are the best reference for reporting your personal opinion and experience; and personal anecdotes, too.
Personal opinion and personal experience (and personal agendas) are not a very "scientific basis" for recording/evaluating "evidence" about cyclist behavior or safety records, reaching conclusions about comparative risk, and making psychological evaluations of the entire population of cyclists, would be cyclists, and never were cyclists.
Personal opinion and personal experience (and personal agendas) are not a very "scientific basis" for recording/evaluating "evidence" about cyclist behavior or safety records, reaching conclusions about comparative risk, and making psychological evaluations of the entire population of cyclists, would be cyclists, and never were cyclists.
Once again, if I had listened to the other bicycling advocates in Atlanta years ago, I would have believed that it was impossible to ride my bike to work in Atlanta.
So, comparing the results in my individual case (not the entire population of cyclists, as you put it,) Forester's vehicular cycling technique achieved results for me that our local bike facility advocates still cannot, not a decade later.
I judge my own case by results.
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Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
This has zero to do with my contention that John Forester's vehicular cycling techniques, and his insistance that roads without bike lanes can be ridden safely, were responsible for releasing me from the fear of traffic and motivated me to ride to work, for which I am happy to express my gratitude publicly.
Once again, if I had listened to the other bicycling advocates in Atlanta years ago, I would have believed that it was impossible to ride my bike to work in Atlanta.
So, comparing the results in my individual case (not the entire population of cyclists, as you put it,) Forester's vehicular cycling technique achieved results for me that our local bike facility advocates still cannot, not a decade later.
I judge my own case by results.
Once again, if I had listened to the other bicycling advocates in Atlanta years ago, I would have believed that it was impossible to ride my bike to work in Atlanta.
So, comparing the results in my individual case (not the entire population of cyclists, as you put it,) Forester's vehicular cycling technique achieved results for me that our local bike facility advocates still cannot, not a decade later.
I judge my own case by results.
Preferences and desirability are another story.
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Your case appears to be that reading Forester's insistence that roads can be be ridden without bike lanes was the catalyst for your cycling freedom. Most people can recognize that fact by opening their eyes. In fact, who documents that they can't?
Preferences and desirability are another story.
Preferences and desirability are another story.
So your case is different, I'm glad for you. I truly am, and I having seen some of the routes you are forced to use to get to work on your bike, I understand why you feel bike paths would not limit you, but rather expand your freedoms. I'm not closed-minded on this subject.
Please don't take my gratitude for what I believe Forester did for me as taking sides in some great cosmic debate over bike facilities around the world. I can only speak for myself, and I have done so honestly.
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Your case appears to be that reading Forester's insistence that roads can be be ridden without bike lanes was the catalyst for your cycling freedom. Most people can recognize that fact by opening their eyes. In fact, who documents that they can't?
Preferences and desirability are another story.
Preferences and desirability are another story.
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Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
Please don't take my gratitude for what I believe Forester did for me as taking sides in some great cosmic debate over bike facilities around the world. I can only speak for myself, and I have done so honestly.
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Removed the (funny) off topic posts. moderator Rev.Chuck
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Originally Posted by Rev.Chuck
Removed the (funny) off topic posts. moderator Rev.Chuck
You probably loaded them onto your hard drive.
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Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
I'm sure you guys are still laughing at them even now.
You probably loaded them onto your hard drive.
You probably loaded them onto your hard drive.
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Man, we can't even have fun in here. Did someone whine to the mods. about this? I don't imagine Chipcom did. I'm beginning to think the mods. eat coal & produce diamonds. That or it is the thin skins in here that do.
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Originally Posted by N_C
Man, we can't even have fun in here. Did someone whine to the mods. about this? I don't imagine Chipcom did. I'm beginning to think the mods. eat coal & produce diamonds. That or it is the thin skins in here that do.
Normally, I joke around quite a bit, too.
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Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
I reported it to the mods. Not being thin-skinned, just practical. Sort of like closing the door when you want to have a serious discussion.
Normally, I joke around quite a bit, too.
Normally, I joke around quite a bit, too.
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Originally Posted by N_C
You should have left well enough alone dude. It will probably be the only funny thing that happens to this thread. Now it is back to the regular boring ass programming the mods. created for us in this sub-forum dedicated to & created for JF & his disciples.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
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Originally Posted by chipcom
It's his thread and now you are disrupting it even further...just mind your business, k?
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Originally Posted by N_C
You should have left well enough alone dude. It will probably be the only funny thing that happens to this thread. Now it is back to the regular boring ass programming the mods. created for us in this sub-forum dedicated to & created for JF & his disciples.
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Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
You're entitled to your opinion.
I can only go by personal experience on this. Everyone else will too, I'm sure.
When I started riding my bike to work years ago, only one strategy made it practical: those put forth as part of vehicular cycling. Bike facilities were either non-existant or totally impractical for my needs--there is one path/route that goes from Stone Mountain to Atlanta, but it's almost 20 miles long, very slow, and has many tricky or blind intersections.
Principles put forth by John Forester (the curmudgeon) were almost solely responsible for enabling me to discover the great joys of bike commuting at a time when all the "advocates" were still saying I couldn't do that in Atlanta because we still needed more bike facilities. In fact, 10 years later, the "advocates" are still saying that.
With all the negative publicity he's gotten on these forums, I'd like to say publicly, thanks John.
I can only go by personal experience on this. Everyone else will too, I'm sure.
When I started riding my bike to work years ago, only one strategy made it practical: those put forth as part of vehicular cycling. Bike facilities were either non-existant or totally impractical for my needs--there is one path/route that goes from Stone Mountain to Atlanta, but it's almost 20 miles long, very slow, and has many tricky or blind intersections.
Principles put forth by John Forester (the curmudgeon) were almost solely responsible for enabling me to discover the great joys of bike commuting at a time when all the "advocates" were still saying I couldn't do that in Atlanta because we still needed more bike facilities. In fact, 10 years later, the "advocates" are still saying that.
With all the negative publicity he's gotten on these forums, I'd like to say publicly, thanks John.
Other than VC, there is no other effective system for riding on roads with cars. Systems that present street cycling as an "art" imply that only those with natural talent can master it, and all others are forced to ride in the bike lanes.
OTOH, turning cycling into a concrete system (like Forester did with VC) implies that anybody can learn to do ride with the cars. When I started riding, JF's book was the first one I read, and it's still the best. It gave me the courage and the skills set to hit the road, and it's served me well now for many thousands of miles of riding.
I think the best course is to pick and choose from Forester's writings. Clearly, most modern cyclists would reject a lot of his outdated advice on bicycle mechanics. Likewise, a lot of cyclists will reject his ideas about bike facilities and advocacy. But when it comes to the nuts and bolts of how to ride a bicycle with cars, Forester be beat.
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Originally Posted by Roody
I have to agree with you, based also on my personal experience.
Other than VC, there is no other effective system for riding on roads with cars. Systems that present street cycling as an "art" imply that only those with natural talent can master it, and all others are forced to ride in the bike lanes.
OTOH, turning cycling into a concrete system (like Forester did with VC) implies that anybody can learn to do ride with the cars. When I started riding, JF's book was the first one I read, and it's still the best. It gave me the courage and the skills set to hit the road, and it's served me well now for many thousands of miles of riding.
I think the best course is to pick and choose from Forester's writings. Clearly, most modern cyclists would reject a lot of his outdated advice on bicycle mechanics. Likewise, a lot of cyclists will reject his ideas about bike facilities and advocacy. But when it comes to the nuts and bolts of how to ride a bicycle with cars, Forester be beat.
Other than VC, there is no other effective system for riding on roads with cars. Systems that present street cycling as an "art" imply that only those with natural talent can master it, and all others are forced to ride in the bike lanes.
OTOH, turning cycling into a concrete system (like Forester did with VC) implies that anybody can learn to do ride with the cars. When I started riding, JF's book was the first one I read, and it's still the best. It gave me the courage and the skills set to hit the road, and it's served me well now for many thousands of miles of riding.
I think the best course is to pick and choose from Forester's writings. Clearly, most modern cyclists would reject a lot of his outdated advice on bicycle mechanics. Likewise, a lot of cyclists will reject his ideas about bike facilities and advocacy. But when it comes to the nuts and bolts of how to ride a bicycle with cars, Forester be beat.
If a transportational cyclist reads chapter 4 and nothing else, he or she will get most of what is necessary to know to practice vehicular cycling in traffic.
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
I am simply amazed that people need/needed a book or a need/needed some instructional course to enable them to ride a bicycle on the road.
Many drivers take courses and/or read to learn how to drive a motorvehicle more safely in traffic, why not somthing similar for a bicycle?
Al
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
Did you just throw yourself out there and hope for the best, learning from you mistakes?
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey